Author Topic: Advice on CPU + video card  (Read 1302 times)

Offline Replicant

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Advice on CPU + video card
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2003, 04:53:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Martlet
I don't know how to overclock.  My cpu is just how I got it.


Enter the BIOS and change the FSB settings - a 266 FSB will be set at 133 in the BIOS (double rate to 266), or a 333 FSB will be 166 etc.  If you increase it, e.g. on 333FSB board increasing it from 166 to 168 will overclock the CPU and so forth - 170 will be even higher (340).  The more you increase the more you overclock.  If the CPU was a XP2800+ then it'll still show as a XP2800+ but it will be running at a higher frequency.  

Don't know how to explain it any easier, I don't know all the 'buzz' words! :)
NEXX

Offline BB Gun

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« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2003, 06:14:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mrblack
The point is I am running at 3.7 GHz
For the price of a 2.4GHz


Wrong.

You are running at 3.7 GHz for the price of a 2.4 GHz PLUS ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS.

lessee....

3.2 GHz intel extreme is  currently $585.00, 2.4 is $222.00, price differential is approximately 350.  So you've spent an extra 700 bucks to get .5 GHz over the current max stock speed.  And you're choking the system with a GF4 4600 instead of a modern videocard.

Whatever floats your boat, I guess.  I just don't get it.  *shrug*

I do guess, over the life of the system, it may eventually pay off over the course of 2,3 or 4 rebuilds, but what are the odds that the parts won't fit new socket designs?

Like I said, I'd rather have the second system than an extra 0.5 GHz.

But you're not me, I'm not you, and that's what makes the world go around. :)

BB
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Offline BB Gun

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« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2003, 06:16:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Replicant
Enter the BIOS and change the FSB settings - a 266 FSB will be set at 133 in the BIOS (double rate to 266), or a 333 FSB will be 166 etc.  If you increase it, e.g. on 333FSB board increasing it from 166 to 168 will overclock the CPU and so forth - 170 will be even higher (340).  The more you increase the more you overclock.  If the CPU was a XP2800+ then it'll still show as a XP2800+ but it will be running at a higher frequency.  

Don't know how to explain it any easier, I don't know all the 'buzz' words! :)


Be careful about bumping FSB - it changes PCI/AGP speeds unless your BIOS gives you the option to lock the PCI/AGP speed or change its ratio.  Changing the AGP/PCI bus speeds can cause problems with video card and PCI cards.

With the Bartons, the multiplier is unlocked, at least with nForce2 boards.  Dunno about KT333 boards.  I just changed my multiplier and bumped my processor speed from 1833 to 2083 MHz (=2800+ speed).  FSB changes come later when I pass my current RAM to my kids machine and get faster PC3200RAM.

BB
« Last Edit: October 18, 2003, 06:19:28 PM by BB Gun »
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Offline Replicant

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« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2003, 06:21:37 PM »
I'm using a MSI KT6 Delta (VIA KT600) 400FSB capable - there's isn't a multiplier so the only way to overclock is by increasing the frequency of the FSB... unless someone can correct me to an easier way?
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Offline mrblack

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« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2003, 01:02:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BB Gun
Wrong.

You are running at 3.7 GHz for the price of a 2.4 GHz PLUS ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS.

lessee....

3.2 GHz intel extreme is  currently $585.00, 2.4 is $222.00, price differential is approximately 350.  So you've spent an extra 700 bucks to get .5 GHz over the current max stock speed.  And you're choking the system with a GF4 4600 instead of a modern videocard.

Whatever floats your boat, I guess.  I just don't get it.  *shrug*

I do guess, over the life of the system, it may eventually pay off over the course of 2,3 or 4 rebuilds, but what are the odds that the parts won't fit new socket designs?

Like I said, I'd rather have the second system than an extra 0.5 GHz.

But you're not me, I'm not you, and that's what makes the world go around. :)

BB


 
Prometiea offers and will continue to offer cooling heads(the part that makes contact with CPU)
For all upcoming Intel and AMD CPUs.

So it is forever upgradable.
And the P4 2.4 Is $175.00 at http://www.newegg.com

And you can buy the Prometiea in England for $660USD.
I just messed up and bought from US reseller:mad:
Also you have the option of buying the prometiea MAch1 for $550.

So you can get in fairly cheap.
As far as vid card well LOL.
We are building a new house and maybe you do or don't know what that can do to you're money :(

But it is next on my list as far as upgrades go thats for sure.
Looking at that new 256meg card ATI just realeased.
But baby It is expensive:eek:
let me know I can hook you up cheaper than you think for a Prometiea.
:aok
« Last Edit: October 19, 2003, 01:08:40 AM by mrblack »

Offline mrblack

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« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2003, 01:07:15 AM »
Let me se if I understand.
AMD=333 FSB Overclock?
INTEL=800 FSB Overclock 1200-1300.


I am no rocket sientist but I think Intel has AMD by the short and curlys on the FSB anyway.


It all comes down to this I think.
Are you a Ford or Chevy man:D

Offline mrblack

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« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2003, 01:14:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BB Gun
.  And you're choking the system with a GF4 4600 instead of a modern videocard.

BB


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Offline Replicant

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« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2003, 05:13:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by mrblack
Let me se if I understand.
AMD=333 FSB Overclock?
INTEL=800 FSB Overclock 1200-1300.


I am no rocket sientist but I think Intel has AMD by the short and curlys on the FSB anyway.


It all comes down to this I think.
Are you a Ford or Chevy man:D


AMD do have a 400 FSB which is comparable to the Intel 800 FSB.  AMD is set at 200 (double rate = 400).  Intel no doubt have theirs at 200 too but have a multiplier to make it 800... if that makes sense?  The AMD can be overclocked by increasing the '200' and dependant on system cooling.
NEXX

Offline bloom25

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« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2003, 12:57:37 AM »
That's correct Replicant, as I posted briefly above.  In case anyone really cares, here's some more info: ;)  

AMD uses a 200 MHz fundamental DDR EV6 bus for the Athlon XP 3200+ (400 MHz effective) to the Northbridge.  The 2500+ to 3000+ use a 166 MHz DDR EV6 bus (333 MHz effective).  The Athlon 64 chips don't even have a FSB, as their memory controller is part of the CPU itself, meaning the closest thing they have to a traditional FSB link to main memory runs at the clockspeed of the processor.  They do have an 800 MHz DDR Hypertransport link to the chipset (1600 MHz effective).  It's not technically even a northbridge anymore, as there is no memory controller there, it's pretty much only a link to the AGP video card and the rest of the system.  The 'C' type P4s use a 200 MHz QDR (quad data rate) GTL+ (gunning transistor logic) bus to link to the Northbridge (800 MHz effective).  'B' type P4s have a 133 MHz fundamental clock (533 MHz effective) and the older 'A' type Northwoods and Willamette type P4s used a 100 MHz QDR bus (400 MHz effective).

Regardless, the FSB clockrate really means almost nothing when comparing two totally different CPU architectures.  (Just look at the FSB speed of the Itanium as an example.  I don't think anyone can argue that the Itanium is a faster CPU overall than the 3.2 GHz 'C' type P4.)  In general, the faster the FSB, the lower the latency for memory accesses and the greater the bandwidth.  That means that for a given architecture the faster the FSB, the faster the CPU will perform at the same clockspeed.  This only holds true to a point though.  To explain why would require a LOT of my time, and I doubt anyone would care enough to warrant me spending the time to explain it.  The Pentium 4 is much more sensitive to memory bandwidth than the Athlon XP is and Intel has outfitted the 'C' type P4s with a high bandwidth 800 MHz effective FSB.  AMD has done away with the traditional FSB entirely in its new Athlon 64 line of CPUs.

Offline mrblack

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« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2003, 01:19:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by bloom25
That's correct Replicant, as I posted briefly above.  In case anyone really cares, here's some more info: ;)  

AMD uses a 200 MHz fundamental DDR EV6 bus for the Athlon XP 3200+ (400 MHz effective) to the Northbridge.  The 2500+ to 3000+ use a 166 MHz DDR EV6 bus (333 MHz effective).  The Athlon 64 chips don't even have a FSB, as their memory controller is part of the CPU itself, meaning the closest thing they have to a traditional FSB link to main memory runs at the clockspeed of the processor.  They do have an 800 MHz DDR Hypertransport link to the chipset (1600 MHz effective).  It's not technically even a northbridge anymore, as there is no memory controller there, it's pretty much only a link to the AGP video card and the rest of the system.  The 'C' type P4s use a 200 MHz QDR (quad data rate) GTL+ (gunning transistor logic) bus to link to the Northbridge (800 MHz effective).  'B' type P4s have a 133 MHz fundamental clock (533 MHz effective) and the older 'A' type Northwoods and Willamette type P4s used a 100 MHz QDR bus (400 MHz effective).

Regardless, the FSB clockrate really means almost nothing when comparing two totally different CPU architectures.  (Just look at the FSB speed of the Itanium as an example.  I don't think anyone can argue that the Itanium is a faster CPU overall than the 3.2 GHz 'C' type P4.)  In general, the faster the FSB, the lower the latency for memory accesses and the greater the bandwidth.  That means that for a given architecture the faster the FSB, the faster the CPU will perform at the same clockspeed.  This only holds true to a point though.  To explain why would require a LOT of my time, and I doubt anyone would care enough to warrant me spending the time to explain it.  The Pentium 4 is much more sensitive to memory bandwidth than the Athlon XP is and Intel has outfitted the 'C' type P4s with a high bandwidth 800 MHz effective FSB.  AMD has done away with the traditional FSB entirely in its new Athlon 64 line of CPUs.


Thats a good read.
And I for one would be interested in hearing more.
Thx.

Offline bloom25

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« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2003, 02:30:53 AM »
Working on it as we speak Mr. Black. :)  It's already a couple pages, and it's 12:38 AM here now, so I don't know if I'll get it finished tonight or not.

Offline bloom25

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« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2003, 03:11:21 AM »
Here you go!  I'll try to condense 4 years of college computer architecture classes down to 1000 words.  I just hope that some of it makes sense when I'm done. :D

The first thing I should probably do it explain what a "front side bus" is in the first place.

A "front side bus" is the link between the CPU and the rest of the system, specifically what is typically known as the "Northbridge".  

Most chipsets (which are on the motherboard itself) consist of two parts, the Northbridge and Southbridge.  The Northbridge historically has contained the memory controller (Sdram, DDR Sdram, Rambus, etc) as well as more recently the controller for the AGP slot itself.  The Southbridge typically controls just about everything else in the system.  (PS2 ports, USB ports, LPT port, onboard sound, IDE controller, floppy controller, onboard network, etc.)  The Northbridge and Southbridge are typically linked by the PCI bus, on which most of the expansion cards in the PC also connect.  (There are exceptions to this, as some single chip solutions now exist (Sis chipsets), and sometimes a different separate bus links the NB and SB, as is the case with the nForce chipsets which use a Hypertransport link and VIA chipsets which use "Vlink".)  Why does this matter?  Basically the front side bus is the critical link between the CPU and the entire system.  This means that the faster the FSB is, the faster the CPU can communicate with everything else in the system.  If the CPU wants to get data or instructions from system RAM, that data travels over the FSB.  If the CPU needs data from the hard drive, that data travels to the southbridge, over the PCI bus to the Northbridge, and then over the FSB to the CPU.  As you would expect, the faster this link is, the faster the system will be.  If this is true, why would I say that a faster FSB results in diminishing returns in system speed beyond a certain point?  I'll get to that. ;)

(BTW for all you tech historians:  There used to be a "back side bus" which linked the CPU to it's Level 2 (L2) cache.  The term is now obsolete, because just about every modern CPU since the Coppermine Pentium 3 core has had it's L2 cache as part of the CPU itself, meaning the BSB is part of the CPU itself as well.  If you want to get really technical, the term front side bus is no longer really valid in its original context, because it is now the only bus.)

Perhaps the first thing I should cover when trying to explain why a faster FSB doesn't always result in a corresponding increase in system performance is to consider the case when the CPU needs data from the harddrive.  (Which happens quite a bit when loading programs and when the data the CPU needs does not fit into system memory.)  I'm sure all of you know that the harddrive is many orders of magnitude slower in transfering data than system memory is.  The amount of delay imposed by the data traveling over the FSB is nearly negligable when compared to the amount of time it takes for the hard drive to retreve and store information.  This makes the FSB speed itself very much a non-factor.

The next case is when the CPU needs data from main memory.  There are two key concepts to understand here:  "Latency" and "Bandwidth".  

Latency is essentially the amount of time the CPU must wait between issuing a request for information and when the information actually is available to the processor.  This time is generally measured in nanoseconds, but it's far more useful to look at it in terms of clockcycles the CPU executes.  This is because the CPU is essentially wasting time during the clockcycles where it is waiting for data and/or instructions from memory.  I'll come back to this later, because it is probably the most important thing to understand.

Bandwidth is the amount of data that can be transfered in a given unit of time.

Let's look at this from a more intuitive example.  Consider a highway where vehicles travel from one point to another.  In this example, bandwidth is essentally the number of lanes of the highway.  Latency is essentially its length.  Lets say you have a contest to get the most vehicles from one end of the highway to the other.  Unfortunately, only a certain number of vehicles can enter the highway per second.  This start of the highway is roughly analogous to main memory in a computer.  The end of the highway is the CPU itself, and compared to main memory, is far faster.  As you can well imagine, if you make the highway shorter (lower the latency) you can get more vehicles to the end (data to the CPU) in the same amount of time as that of a longer highway.  Given you can get enough vehicles onto the highway, having more lanes will also get more vehicles to the end of the highway.  Consider this though, what happens when you have 800 lanes on your freeway, but only 400 cars can enter it at any given time?  Basically, 400 lanes are wasted.  (Ok, enough car talk. ;) I'm getting bored with it... )

Real memory in a computer cannot transmit data continuously.  It takes a certain amount of time from when the CPU (or more correctly the memory controller in the Northbridge acting on behalf of the CPU) requests data, until when the memory can begin sending that information.  This amount of time is the memory latency.  To read data from DDR SDRAM memory, which is arranged as a giant grid of both rows and columns, it takes a certain amount of clock cycles to charge the individual cell the data is in (precharge), a certain amount of time to activate the row the data is in (RAS - row address strobe), and a certain amount of time to access the column the data is in (CAS - column address strobe, a term most people who buy memory have heard.), the final factor is the command rate (time between issuing a command to memory to when the command is executed, usually only a cycle or two).  All of this is what is collectively known at memory latency.  (You see this printed on memory and on review sites as a string of 4 or 5 numbers.)  The lower the latency, the less time it takes for the memory to begin transfering data to the northbridge.  DDR memory currently runs at 100 Mhz - PC1600, 133 Mhz - PC2100, 166 MHz - PC2700, and 200 MHz - PC3200 as standard rates.  The latency is measured in the number of memory clock cycles.  (You probably think I'm wrong here, and that PC3200 memory runs at 400 MHz.  That's not actually true, and I'm getting to that.)  DDR memory (double data rate) has the capability of transfering data on both the rising edge (low to high) of the clock pulse and on the falling edge (high to low) of the clock pulse.  If it could do this all the time, it would have the same bandwidth as regular SDRAM, which transfers data on only the rising (low to high) clock edge.  This is why PC3200 is also known as DDR400, because it is capable of transfering, at a maximum, at the same bandwidth as SDRAM running at 400 MHz.  This also explains why you sometimes see DDR memory with a CAS latency of 2.5 cycles, this means the data can access that column after 5 clock edges (rising or falling).  DDR memory can transfer data on both the rising and falling edges when it is performing a burst transfer of more than one location in memory.  Most of the time it does, and there is a very good reason for this.  Typically when a CPU wants data from memory, the next access from memory will be from a location very close to that of the first access.  For this reason, SDRAM (and the older fast page memory) will transfer the entire contents of the memory row.  This boosts performance, because if the CPU does end up needing data in the next cell, that data has already been transfered.  If it ends up the access is not from the same row, nothing is really lost, as the CPU just discards the data it doesn't need.  Note that I've hugely simplified this.  This is what is known as "spacial locatity" in computer architecture classes, which basically says that a CPU will most request data from memory in a location near the last access most of the time.  Basically SDRAM and DDR SDRAM assume this and just transfer all the data near to what the CPU requests.  Wow, that's a lot of information to try to condense and "dumb" down, but hopefully those of you who stuck with it now better understand what memory latency is.

Now, lets briefly touch on bandwidth.   Individual DDR memory modules in modern computers are 64 bits wide, meaning they transfer data in 64 bit chunks on both the rising and falling edges of their data clock.  This is the amount of data transfered over a single channel.  If we are talking about a DDR 400 module, this bandwidth will be 3.2 Gigabytes per second.  If we have two independant channels (dual channel) transfering data at the same time this will be 6.4 Gigabytes per second.

Offline bloom25

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« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2003, 03:12:21 AM »
(Too long for a single post)

Consider this:  For best performance, the CPU's FSB should be capable of transfering data at the same rate as which it can be transfered at a maximum from main memory.  For the case of Dual channel DDR400 (PC3200) memory, this is 6.4 GB/sec.  The bandwidth offered by the P4 'C' type 800 MHz equiv. FSB is 6.4 GB/sec.  You can imagine that if the FSB was slower than this, you'd have a traffic jam with dual channel DDR 400 memory when both channels are transfering at the same time.  This means you are losing performance.  (This is why a 'C' type P4 performs best with dual channel PC3200 memory.)  The opposite case is also true, if the FSB is capable of transfering more data than the ram is capable of delivering, you aren't gaining much performance by having the capability to do so.  This is the case on many systems.  Consider a 'C' type P4 with an 800 MHz FSB, but using only PC2700 DDR333 modules.  If you neglect the influence of Hyperthreading, the 'C' type P4 will perform no better than the 'B' type P4!   This is also true with Athlons.  Thus we have two cases where we are losing potential performance - faster memory than FSB, or a faster FSB than memory.  Thus, the best system memory performance occurs when the FSB is equal (or faster) than memory.  If it is faster you don't gain much though, and in fact may actually lose performance because the Northbridge must wait to transfer data from the CPU's FSB and memory bus until the next clock edge.  This adds latency.  This is why a Athlon 2500+ (333 MHz FSB) runs slower with DDR 400 memory than it does when using DDR 333 memory.  The Athlon architecture is very sensitive to latency, more so than a P4.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to stop here for the night.  It's 1:20 AM and I need to get up in 6 hours.  At this point I haven't tied all the loose ends up, but I think you may begin to see where this is going.  Tomorrow I'll try to post about neat little things like:  Hyperthreading, integrated memory controller, hardware prefetch, cache memory influence, and if anyone actually reads and gets something from this, maybe more! :D

Offline bloom25

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« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2003, 03:23:28 AM »
Since it may be a while until I get around to this tommorow, I think I should mention this:

The 'C' type P4 has a 800 MHz FSB, with enough bandwidth capable of handling the amount of data transfered from two channels of DDR 400 memory.  As I mentioned before, SDRAM type memory transfers the entire row of data, which means that in a dual channel setup two entire rows of data will be sent for each memory request.  If the CPU doesn't actually need all of that data, the benefits of transfering all of it, and thus the performance advantage of a 800 MHz FSB over that of a 400 MHz FSB (single channel DDR 400) is wasted.  Remember that the CPU simply throws away what it doesn't need.  To be technically correct, it stores all the data in it's L2 cache (L3 as well if it has one) until it runs out of room, in which case it dumps the oldest data.  It also must discard portions or all of its data stored in cache when it writes back to memory.  (If a CPU needs to write to memory, the data in the cache which was transfered from the location it wants to write to is no longer correct, and is discarded.  The cache can also be flushed when the CPU switches processing from one thread to another.  If this sounds related to Hyperthreading, it is, and more on that tommorow... :) )

Offline 214thCavalier

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« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2003, 03:59:28 AM »
Bloom get outa bed now !   :D