The Complete Aces High2 Fighter Turn Performance

[Kweassa]

The AH2 Compendium of Fighter Turn Performance

[b]Testing Parameters[/b]

Weapons/Ammunition
1. Standard weapons loadout was preferred
2. For planes with multiple choice of armament loadouts, the most preferred loadout was tested
  [i](ie. 20mm options on the C.205)[/i]
3. Planes with alternate standard loadouts were tested accordingly
  [i](ie. Bf109G with 20mms and 30mms were tested separately)[/i]
4. For planes with different ammunition options, the most preferred option was tested
  [i](ie. 3400 rounds of M2 50cal for the P-47s)[/i]
5. External loadouts and rigs, were not used
  [i](ie. rocket pods, gun pods, bomb racks)[/i]

Fuel
1. Fuel is set to 75% for all tested types
2. Individual fuel settings were not considered for the purpose of general comparisons for average
   fighter performance. Therefore, some types have been slightly effected for worse.
  [i](ie. The F4U-1 at 75% fuel, carries more fuel load than the F4U-1D at 75% fuel)[/i]

Throttle
1. Planes were tested at maximum possible throttle setting (WEP included)

Altitude
1. Test altitude is between 0~500ft
2. Variance in altitude during turns were contained to less than 100ft

Flaps
1. Turn performance was tested with;
   Flaps up, one notch, full flaps

Stall Limiter
1. Turn performance was tested with the Stall Limiter method, intended to minimizing human errors
   and disparities in individual skill level
2. Default SL angle is set to 0.05
3. For planes that cannot handle 0.05 due to various reasons (such as leading edge slats), an
   appropriate SL angle was used
4. Having gigher SL setting required for test, translates to the following fact:

[b]  "The higher the SL angle required for testing, the higher the tendency to destabilize
   (particularly in the roll axis) when nearing the limits of performance." [/b]

Testing
1. All "fighter" class planes were tested
2. All planes were turned according to their favorable direction of turn
3. Tested area of performance is defined as follows;

[b]   "Time required to turn one full circle (360 degrees), while maintaining
    tightest turn possible, at maximum throttle setting"[/b]

4. Therefore, this test does not address the differences in turn performances caused by
   alternate methods of turn control such as;

   1) using lower throttle settings
   2) using climbs/dives during turn
   3) using stalls to change plane
    ... etc.

 Results are as follows:

-Results Format-[/b]

Type (SL angle used)
- time to complete under normal setting (average turn speed), radius
- time to complete under one notch of flap (average turn speed), radius
- time to complete under full flap (average turn speed), radius

*Individual Notes

A6M2 (0.05)
- 14 seconds (123mph), 122.3m
- 14 seconds (115mph), 114.5m
- 14 seconds (105mph), 104.6m


A6M5b (0.05)
- 15 seconds (130mph), 138.7m
- 14 seconds (125mph), 124.5m
- 15 seconds (108mph), 115.3m


Bf109E-4 (1.0/1.1/1.2)
- 17 seconds (152mph), 183.9m
- 18 seconds (138mph), 176.8m
- 18 seconds (118mph), 151.1m


Bf109F-4 (1.0/1.2/1.2)
- 16 seconds (162mph), 184.5m
- 18 seconds (146mph), 187.1m
- 18 seconds (138mph), 175.5m


Bf109G-2 (1.0/1.2/1.2)
- 17 seconds (167mph), 202.1m
- 18 seconds (160mph), 205.0m
- 17 seconds (148mph), 179.0m


Bf109G-6 (1.0/1.2/1.2)
MG151/20
- 18 seconds (163mph), 208.8m
- 18 seconds (160mph), 204.9m
- 18 seconds (134mph), 171.6m
MK108
- 18 seconds (168mph), 215.2m
- 19 seconds (158mph), 213.6m
- 18 seconds (137mph), 175.5m


Bf109G-10 (1.0/1.3/1.3)
MG151/20
- 18 seconds (176mph), 225.5m
- 19 seconds (163mph), 220.4m
- 19 seconds (142mph), 192.0m
MK108
- 18 seconds (179mph), 229.3m
- 19 seconds (167mph), 225.8m
- 19 seconds (149mph), 201.5m


Bf110C-4 (0.05)
- 20 seconds (139mph), 197.8m
- 19 seconds (119mph), 161.0m
- 16 seconds (100mph), 142.3m


Bf110G-2 (1.0)
- 22 seconds (145mph), 227.0m
- 22 seconds (131mph), 205.1m
- 20 seconds (105mph), 149.5m


C.202 (0.05)
- 20 seconds (142mph), 202.1m
- 18 seconds (146mph), 187.0m
- 18 seconds (129mph), 165.2m


C.205 (1.0)
- 19 seconds (168mph), 227.2m
- 18 seconds (162mph), 207.5m
- 20 seconds (136mph), 193.6m


F4F-4 (0.05)
- 21 seconds (125mph), 186.8m
- 20 seconds (118mph), 167.9m
- 20 seconds (98mph ), 139.5m


FM-2 (0.05)
- 18 seconds (133mph), 170.4m
- 16 seconds (129mph), 146.9m
- 18 seconds (100mph), 128.1m


F4U-1 (1.0)
- 20 seconds (154mph), 219.2m
- 21 seconds (138mph), 206.2m
- 20 seconds (106mph), 150.9m


F4U-1D (1.0)
- 19 seconds (160mph), 216.4m
- 19 seconds (149mph), 201.5m
- 19 seconds (110mph), 148.7m


F4U-1C (1.0)
- 21 seconds (162mph), 242.1m
- 20 seconds (150mph), 213.5m
- 20 seconds (110mph), 156.6m


F4U-4 (1.0)
- 19 seconds (168mph), 227.2m
- 18 seconds (162mph), 207.5m
- 18 seconds (113mph), 144.7m


F6F-5 (1.0)
- 20 seconds (160mph), 227.7m
- 19 seconds (145mph), 196.1m
- 19 seconds (118mph), 159.5m


Fw190A-5 (1.0/1.5)
- 21 seconds (180mph), 269.0m
- 21 seconds (162mph), 242.1m
- N/A

Fw190A-8 (1.0/1.5)
4xMG151/20
- 23 seconds (181mph), 296.3m
- 21 seconds (171mph), 255.6m
- N/A
2xMG151/20, 2xMK108
- 23 seconds (181mph), 296.3m
- 23 seconds (172mph), 281.6m
- N/A


Fw190D-9 (1.0/1.5)
- 22 seconds (181mph), 283.4m
- 21 seconds (172mph), 257.1m
- N/A


Fw190F-8 (1.0/1.5)
- 23 seconds (179mph), 293.0m
- 22 seconds (171mph), 267.8m
- N/A

* Fw190s cannot maintain a turn tight/slow enough for full flaps


Hurricane Mk.Ia (0.05)
- 15 seconds (126mph), 134.5m
- N/A
- 15 seconds (104mph), 111.0m


Hurricane Mk.IIc (0.05)
- 15 seconds (136mph), 145.2m
- N/A
- 15 seconds (116mph), 123.8m


Hurricane Mk.IId (0.05)
- 16 seconds (146mph), 166.2m
- N/A
- 17 seconds (116mph), 140.3m

* Hurricanes and Spitfires have only landing flap positions available


Ki-61-I-Tei (0.05)
- 18 seconds (151mph), 193.4m
- 18 seconds (146mph), 187.0m
- 19 seconds (131mph), 177.1m


Ki-84-I-Ko (0.05)
- 17 seconds (153mph), 185.1m
- 17 seconds (130mph), 157.3m
- 16 seconds (117mph), 133.2m


La-5FN (0.05)
- 18 seconds (156mph), 199.8m
- 17 seconds (150mph), 181.5m
- 17 seconds (126mph), 152.4m


La-7 (0.05)
ShVAK
- 18 seconds (162mph), 207.5m
- 18 seconds (153mph), 196.0m
- 17 seconds (127mph), 153.6m
B-20
- 18 seconds (162mph), 207.5m
- 17 seconds (151mph), 182.7m
- 17 seconds (126mph), 152.4m


Me163B (0.05)
- 17 seconds (210mph), 254.1m
- 17 seconds (196mph), 237.1m
- N/A

* Me163B flies too fast at full throttle turn, for full flaps to be used


Me262A (0.05)
- 27 seconds (204mph), 392.0m
- 28 seconds (190mph), 378.7m
- 31 seconds (153mph), 359.6m


Mosquito Mk.VI (0.05)
- 21 seconds (149mph), 222.7m
- 18 seconds (140mph), 179.3m
- 20 seconds (118mph), 167.9m


N1K2-J (0.05)
- 17 seconds (167mph), 202.0m
- 16 seconds (153mph), 174.2m
- 15 seconds (134mph), 143.0m


P-38G (0.05)
- 19 seconds (174mph), 235.3m
- 20 seconds (157mph), 223.5m
- 18 seconds (116mph), 148.6m


P-38J (0.05)
- 21 seconds (180mph), 269.0m
- 19 seconds (170mph), 229.9m
- 19 seconds (116mph), 156.8m


P-38L (0.05)
- 21 seconds (184mph), 275.0m
- 19 seconds (169mph), 228.5m
- 19 seconds (119mph), 160.9m


P-40B (1.0)
- 21 seconds (139mph), 207.7m
- 21 seconds (131mph), 195.8m
- 21 seconds (112mph), 167.4m


P-40E (1.0)
- 19 seconds (154mph), 208.2m
- 19 seconds (140mph), 189.3m
- 19 seconds (124mph), 167.7m


P-47D-11 (0.05)
- 23 seconds (153mph), 250.5m
- 23 seconds (136mph), 222.6m
- 22 seconds (120mph), 187.9m


P-47D-25 (0.05)
- 23 seconds (157mph), 257.0m
- 23 seconds (143mph), 234.1m
- 23 seconds (120mph), 196.4m


P-47D-40 (0.05)
- 24 seconds (159mph), 271.6m
- 22 seconds (151mph), 236.4m
- 23 seconds (124mph), 203.0m


P-51B (0.05)
- 23 seconds (149mph), 243.9m
- 21 seconds (143mph), 213.7m
- 23 seconds (118mph), 193.1m


P-51D (0.05)
- 23 seconds (158mph), 258.6m
- 21 seconds (150mph), 224.2m
- 22 seconds (121mph), 189.4m


Spitfire Mk.Ia (0.05)
- 17 seconds (117mph), 141.5m
- N/A
- 17 seconds (97mph) , 117.3m


Spitfire Mk.V
- 16 seconds (137mph), 156.0m
- N/A
- 17 seconds (105mph), 134.5m


Seafire Mk.II (0.05)
- 16 seconds (140mph), 159.4m
- N/A
- 18 seconds (106mph), 135.8m


Spitfire Mk.IX (0.05)
30cal
- 16 seconds (144mph), 164.0m
- N/A
- 16 seconds (118mph), 134.3m
50cal
- 17 seconds (141mph), 170.6m
- N/A
- 17 seconds (121mph), 146.4m


Spitfire Mk.XIV (0.05)
30cal
- 16 seconds (165mph), 187.9m
- N/A
- 18 seconds (119mph), 152.4m
50cal
- 17 seconds (166mph), 200.8m
- N/A
- 18 seconds (118mph), 151.1m


Ta152H-1 (1.0)
- 20 seconds (184mph), 261.9m
- 20 seconds (173mph), 246.2m
- N/A

* Ta152 cannot maintain a turn tight/slow enough for full flaps


Typhoon Mk.Ib (0.05)
- 20 seconds (163mph), 232.0m
- N/A
- N/A


Tempest Mk.V (0.05)
- 18 seconds (168mph), 215.2m
- N/A
- N/A

*Typhoon and Tempest flies too fast at full throttle turn, for flaps to be used


Yak-9T (0,05)
- 20 seconds (144mph), 205.0m
- 19 seconds (132mph), 178.5m
- 19 seconds (116mph), 156.8m


Yak-9U (0.05m)
- 19 seconds (152mph), 205.5m
- 18 seconds (144mph), 184.5m
- 19 seconds (129mph), 174.4m
[/code]

[Kweassa]

[b]List of planes in order of smallest Turn Radius at normal flight conditions[/b]


[b]Type: Radius [/b]
--------------------------------------
A6M2: 122.3m
Hurricane Mk.I: 134.5m
A6M5: 138.7m
Spitfire Mk.I: 141.5m
Hurricane Mk.IIc: 145.2m
Spitfire Mk.V: 156.0m
Seafire Mk.II: 159.4m
Spitfire Mk.IX: 164.0m
Hurricane Mk.IId: 166.2m
FM-2: 170.4m
Spitfire Mk.IX(50cal): 170.6m
Bf109E-4: 183.9m
Bf109F-4: 184.5m
Ki-84-I-Ko (0.05): 185.1m
F4F-4: 186.8m
Spitfire Mk.XIV: 187.9m
Ki-61-I-Tei: 193.4m
Bf110C-4: 197.8m
La-5FN: 199.8m
Spitfire Mk.XIV(50cal): 200.8m
N1K2-J: 202.0m
Bf109G-2: 202.1m
C.202: 202.1m
Yak-9T: 205.0m
Yak-9U: 205.5m
La-7: 207.5m
La-7(3x20mm): 207.5m
P-40B (1.0): 207.7m
P-40E: 208.2m
Bf109G-6: 208.8m
Bf109G-6(30mm): 215.2m
Tempest Mk.V: 215.2m
F4U-1D: 216.4m
F4U-1: 219.2m
Mosquito Mk.VI: 222.7m
Bf109G-10: 225.5m
Bf110G-2: 227.0m
C.205: 227.2m
F4U-4: 227.2m
F6F-5: 227.7m
Bf109G-10(30mm): 229.3m
Typhoon Mk.Ib: 232.0m
P-38G: 235.3m
F4U-1C: 242.1m
P-51B: 243.9m
P-47D-11: 250.5m
Me163B: 254.1m
P-47D-25: 257.0m
P-51D: 258.6m
Ta152H-1: 261.9m
Fw190A-5: 269.0m
P-38J: 269.0m
P-47D-40: 271.6m
P-38L: 275.0m
Fw190D-9: 283.4m
Fw190F-8: 293.0m
Fw190A-8: 296.3m
Fw190A-8(30mm): 296.3m
Me262A: 392.0m

[Kweassa]

[b]List of planes in order of smallest Turn Radius with one notch of flaps used[/b]

Planes that does not have intermediate flap settings use figures normal flight settings.

They are marked with  *


[b]Type: Radius [/b]
--------------------------------------
A6M2: 114.5m
A6M5: 124.5m
*Hurricane Mk.I: 134.5m
*Spitfire Mk.I: 141.5m
*Hurricane Mk.IIc: 145.2m
FM-2: 146.9m
*Spitfire Mk.V: 156.0m
Ki-84-I-Ko: 157.3m
*Seafire Mk.II 159.4m
Bf110C-4: 161.0m
*Spitfire Mk.IX: 164.0m
*Hurricane Mk.IId: 166.2m
F4F-4: 167.9m
*Spitfire Mk.IX(50cal): 170.6m
N1K2-J: 174.2m
Bf109E-4: 176.8m
Yak-9T: 178.5m
Mosquito Mk.VI: 179.3m
La-5FN: 181.5m
La-7(3x20mm): 182.7m
Yak-9U: 184.5m
C.202: 187.0m
Ki-61-I-Tei: 187.0m
Bf109F-4: 187.1m
*Spitfire Mk.XIV: 187.9m
P-40E: 189.3m
P-40B: 195.8m
La-7: 196.0m
F6F-5: 196.1m
*Spitfire Mk.XIV(50cal): 200.8m
F4U-1D: 201.5m
Bf109G-6: 204.9m
Bf109G-2: 205.0m
Bf110G-2: 205.1m
F4U-1: 206.2m
C.205: 207.5m
F4U-4: 207.5m
F4U-1C: 213.5m
Bf109G-6(30mm): 213.6m
P-51B: 213.7m
*Tempest Mk.V: 215.2m
Bf109G-10: 220.4m
P-47D-11: 222.6m
P-38G: 223.5m
P-51D: 224.2m
Bf109G-10(30mm): 225.8m
P-38L: 228.5m
P-38J: 229.9m
P-47D-25: 234.1m
P-47D-40: 236.4m
*Typhoon Mk.Ib: 232.0m
Me163B: 237.1m
Fw190A-5: 242.1m
Ta152H-1: 246.2m
Fw190A-8: 255.6m
Fw190D-9: 257.1m
Fw190F-8: 267.8m
Fw190A-8(30mm): 281.6m
Me262A: 378.7m

[Kweassa]

[b]List of planes in order of smallest Turn Radius with full of flaps engaged[/b]

Planes that cannot use full flaps, use figures for one notch flap setting

Planes that cannot use full flaps & one notch setting, use figures for normal flight setting

They are marked with  *



[b]Type: Radius [/b]
--------------------------------------
A6M2: 104.6m
Hurricane Mk.I: 111.0m
A6M5: 115.3m
Spitfire Mk.I: 117.3m
Hurricane Mk.IIc: 123.8m
FM-2: 128.1m
Ki-84-I-Ko: 133.2m
Spitfire Mk.IX: 134.3m
Spitfire Mk.V: 134.5m
Seafire Mk.II: 135.8m
F4F-4: 139.5m
Hurricane Mk.IId: 140.3m
Bf110C-4: 142.3m
N1K2-J: 143.0m
F4U-4: 144.7m
Spitfire Mk.IX(50cal): 146.4m
P-38G: 148.6m
F4U-1D: 148.7m
Bf110G-2: 149.5m
F4U-1: 150.9m
Bf109E-4: 151.1m
Spitfire Mk.XIV(50cal): 151.1m
Spitfire Mk.XIV: 152.4m
La-5FN 152.4m
La-7(3x20mm): 152.4m
La-7: 153.6m
F4U-1C: 156.6m
P-38J: 156.8m
Yak-9T: 156.8m
F6F-5: 159.5m
P-38L: 160.9m
C.202: 165.2m
P-40B: 167.4m
P-40E: 167.7m
Mosquito Mk.VI: 167.9m
Bf109F-4: 175.5m
Bf109G-6: 171.6m
Yak-9U: 174.4m
Bf109G-6(30mm): 175.5m
Ki-61-I-Tei: 177.1m
Bf109G-2: 179.0m
P-47D-11: 187.9m
P-51D: 189.4m
Bf109G-10: 192.0m
P-51B: 193.1m
C.205: 193.6m
P-47D-25: 196.4m
Bf109G-10(30mm): 201.5m
P-47D-40: 203.0m
*Tempest Mk.V: 215.2m
*Typhoon Mk.Ib: 232.0m
*Me163B: 237.1m
*Fw190A-5: 242.1m
*Ta152H-1: 246.2m
*Fw190A-8: 255.6m
*Fw190D-9: 257.1m
*Fw190F-8: 267.8m
*Fw190A-8(30mm): 281.6m
Me262A: 359.6m

[Kweassa]

Conclusions


 While this test cannot be considered represantative of actual combat conditions, it provides helpful facts on relative turn performances between the fighter aircrafts of AH2.

 Tthe term "TURNING" is comprised of many factors. Howeverm the key factor by which many pilots perceive in how planes "turn", is undoubtably the radius of the turn.

 ...

 Overall 'turn rate' is in many ways, somewhat 'academic' when it comes to discussing turns.

 Under certain circumstances, two planes may have to turn more than five, six, even ten circles to finally gain a decisive edge over the other. In such cases the management of efficient turns by maximizing the turn rate or turn speed may become more important than minimizing the turn radius.

 However, in most cases, pilots are required to turn due to serious and immediate reasons - the most common of them being 'chasing' and 'evading' an enemy plane, depending on which of the combatants is on the attack.

 In these situations, managing a good turn rate is meaningless in the fact that one may gain advantage after many turns, but still he may never get a chance to turn so many times in the first place, when the enemy blatantly "out-turns" him by tightening his radius, gaining a decisive gun solution.

 Therefore, of the many factors involved in turning, the turn radius is of prime importance. Thus, the results of the turn radius testings will provide a general overview on which truly "out-turn" which.

 ...


 However, that does not mean the listed performance figures above, is the only thing to consider when turning is required. Another factor which is particularly important is the stability of these planes when they turn. In a sense, the stability of the plane is almost as important as the pure turn radius of the plane itself.

 
 For example;

 By looking at the figures alone, the German Bf109s are quite competitive turners when it comes to turn radius.

 However, it must pointed out that despite using a 'stall limiter' system which considerably lowers the difficulty of managing constant stick pressures, it was almost punitively difficult to measure the turn radius on the 109s.

 A slightest change in plane conditions will cause an abrupt destabilization in the roll axis, which immediately changes the flight path in such a severe manner that constant maintenance of altitudes and speeds were almost impossible.

 This means, in actual combat, a 109 pilot may never be able to reach the figures listed above, since it is quite likely that it would require an superhuman level of micro-management in stick/rudder controls.


 In comparison, the test results for the P-38s are quite intriguing. Many AH pilots consider the P-38s as one of the best turning planes in the set. Some even go as far as to claiming that P-38s will out-turn Spitfires and N1K2s. However, actual tests say otherwise.

 The turn radius of the P-38 is in fact, quite larger than most of the planes, even when flaps are utilized.

 ...

 Then, how can we explain the discrepancies in the test figures, and the reality of AH combat? Again, as in the case of the Bf109s, 'stability' is the answer.

 When testing the Bf109s for their turn radius with flaps lowered, I had to use very gradual changes in stick input to finally gain max stick deflection.

 Stabilizing the plane for the turn was the difficult and time consuming, which required many revolutions and circles of turning to finally set the optimum, stable turn, to measure its time. However, in the case of the P-38, all I had to do was bank the plane to one side, yank the stick full deflection immediately, turn a couple of circles to stabilize speed, and it was ready for measurement.

 This differences in stability between each planes, effects combat so profoundly that often a plane that is difficult to stabilize, will never reach the desired turn radius in time. It is another jey factor that should be considred when turn fighting.

 ...

 Another thing to note, is that there are about three different types of stabilities when a plane is turning.

 The first, is the stability of the plane during abrupt maneuvers. Planes like the P-38 or the Me262, are inherently resistant to accelerated stalls in that a violent maneuver will still be tolerated, and will rarely induce a spin. Planes with this type of stability, is more likely to be able to abruptly change the direction and the attitude of the plane.

 The second, is the stability of the plane when it is nearing stall AoA, and the third is the stability to recover after a plane has fallen under stall conditions.

 Some planes may have very gentle stall characteristics, but violent near-stall characteristics. Others may be opposite. The 109 is represantative of the former, and the Mosquito is of the latter.

 For example, the Mosquito and Bf110s are noted for having violent and often fatal spins. However, the Mossie and the 110, according to test results, is also a surprisingly tight turner as well.

 The difficulty met when turnin in these planes, is that the Mosquito and the 110 is very docile and gentle during turns, and it rarely has any difficulties in reaching the stalling point. This often mileads the pilot into thinking that he may be able to turn tighter. However, when the line is crossed, these two planes which were very easy manage, suddenly becomes incredibly violent and often near-fatal.

 A simular case was found in the F4U  Corsairs. As long as the plane stayed inside the critical stall angle, it was quite easy to "ride the edge of the envelope". However, once it was stepped over, the stall characteristics were harsh and violent. The Corsairs are excellent in near-stall stability, but violent when after being stalled.

 ...

[Kweassa]

Conclusions (continued)

 One thing I have noticed, after looking at the results, is that many of the comments, perceptions, and circulated "popular facts", about comparative turn/maneuverability performance of WW2 fighter planes, correspond to the turn performance of the planes when they were not using any flap settings.

 In other words, it can be said that most of the anecdotal evidence, or real-life test figures, correspond to AH plane performance when they are not using flaps.

 For example, if I remember correctly, "America Hundred Thousand" lists the P-38s as having the largest turn radius of all American fighters.

 While it may seem strange and perhaps 'wrong', since our AH experiences tell us that empirically, the P-38 is an exceptionally well maneuvering plane, when we look at the test results, AH P-38s also correspond to the fact "AHT" tells us.

 Another example is the relative performance between the 109s and P-47s. These two planes have been adversaries over European skies since 1943, and many anecdotes, testimonies, and 'words of wisdom' clearly state that the P-47 was quite disadvantaged against the 109s when it comes to maneuverability.

 
 ...

 The implications are clear: the portrayal of planes in Aces High, are in fact, farely correct and correspond very well to real life figures.

 The factor which does not correspond to reality, which gives out the feeling that some planes in AH are 'undermodelled', is that in Aces High, people maneuver their planes over the limits most real life fighter pilots would rarely cross.

 It is quite evident that use of flaps - even combat flaps - were not as common as one would like to think. If we look at the list of planes in order of smallest turn radius, under normal flight conditions posted above, we are able to realize that the turn performance of the planes matches the real life accounts quite accurately.

 It is when we reach the list of planes and their turn performance with flap usage, that our perceptions on the comparative turn performance of the planes are totally shattered. Some planes are noted with an incredible rise in rank when flaps are engaged during turns. For example, the Ki-84-I-Ko boasts astounding rise in turn performance when flaps are used. The Corsairs are also one of the planes that benefit the most with flap use.



 

 Thus, after testing all AH planes, I find it quite difficult to press any real arguments or complaints regarding turn performance of the planes.

 The only real issue left, would be the factor discussed previously - "stability issues".

 If I must use the example of the 109s again, it is now clear to me that the physical turn performance/radius of the plane has nothing wrong with it. If for any reason that the 109 does not seem to turn as well it should, it is about its instability during turns which might be subject to be fixed - serious instability will often force a plane to perform less than it is expected to. Perhaps, sometimes, too much lower than expected.

[Simaril]

Kweassa!!

[Shane]

tell me again why the la7 needs to be perked - is it because it's such a monster that can barely turn with the p-40b?




nice technical info;  a lot of work just to prove that it does come down to pilot as often as not.

[Urchin]

I think that information is very valuable for a lot of people, thanks for your hard work Kweassa.  

Shane... to put the La- 7 in terms of "LW" performance... it combines the turning circle of the 109E-4 with the all-round performance of the G-10, while packing more than twice as much firepower.  Not really sure where you got the "barely keeps up with the P-40B" turning... looked to me like it handily out-turned most of the planeset.

[BUG_EAF322]

Lol i outturn about everything when im in a P38G.

i guess it means the turning radius when u are in the cockpit.

[hitech]

Just as a note, Kweassa messured sustained turn times . I.E. who wins once on the deck.

HiTech

[Dead Man Flying]

There are planes that outturn the Spit V.  Please correct this by improving its boost to, say, +25.

Thanks,

Todd/Leviathn

[Kweassa]

Just as a note, Kweassa messured sustained turn times . I.E. who wins once on the deck.

HiTech

 Yes, HT is right.

 For anyone who might think so, please do not consider these results as an absolute in turn fighting. I am just providing a beginning point, where turn performances may be compared with a lot of different factors involved.

 Like HT says, the results are when planes are on the deck, and turning as tight as possible, without utilizing various methods to tighten or loosen turn radius or control turn speeds.

 It is what would happen, if all planes start at one point, and just enter a fully flat turn as hard as they can.

[Kweassa]

Lol i outturn about everything when im in a P38G.

i guess it means the turning radius when u are in the cockpit.

 I don't blame you for thinking that the P-38 results are something that has to do with my lacking skills. Frankly, I was quite shocked when I measured the P-38s, too.

 However, while I cannot claim my method of testing is a fool-proof one, I can claim that it is a method which absolutely minimizes the differences in individual pilot skills, and pushes all the planes to about the same level of the 'edge' as a whole.

 Most of the planes are pushed to 0.05 degrees before reaching stall AoA. Some that cannot handle such high AoA (or, in real combat, would require inhuman levels of micromanagement) , are pushed to 1~1.5 degrees before stall AoA.

 Please remember that this test does not measure how a plane performs when meeting a stall, or, what kind of responsiveness in controls it shows when AFTER passing the stall AoA. There are methods a P-38 might be able to use to its advantage, even after meeting a stall AoA - but that was never a part of this test in the first place. Again, this is a test of planes turning to one direction, on a totally flat orbit, without any oscillations or throttle management whatsoever.

 I believe I have adequately covered this area in the first part of the "Conclusions" post - when analyzing the importance of stability.

 P-38s aren't anything special when it comes to turning radius. It is the ease of how they can reach the absolute limit, how they can maintain that limit, that makes them special, which allows them to outturn most planes.

 The stability of the plane - how the plane allows the pilot to maintain a solid 'grip' when turning, without having to worry about wobbling, losing alt, increasing too much speed.. etc etc.. - is a factor as important as turn radius itself.

 One interesting thought, is what the 110 or the Mosquite - both twin engine fighters - would have been like if they also used counter rotating props.

nice technical info; a lot of work just to prove that it does come down to pilot as often as not.

 Actually, this is what I consider to be the point this test is proving;

 It takes a good pilot to push the plane to the edge, but it is the plane which is inherently gifted, that allows a good pilot the opportunity to utilize it in the first place. Other planes, are denied that opportunity from the start.

 Besides, pilot factor is of hardly any importance when it comes to comparisons. Ace pilots are like freak of nature - it is wrong to base a physical examination on them.

[Karash]

Well I am just a dweeb, but that data on the Ki-84 seems right to me.  Its an "ok" turner in normal low furball situations, but whenever you get combat flaps deployed its becomes a huge difference.

Too bad you have to be 160 something air-speed to deploy them