Mosq's Sustained Turn List v 2.07

[MOSQ]

Folks,

There has been a vigorous discussion of the new flight model with 2.07. I've tested almost all the planes and have posted my results as a .pdf file below. I've also posted Kweassa's test from last year so you can compare the old model to the new. You can't compare the raw numbers because we tested slightly differently (he used stall limiter, I didn't) but the overall rankings can be compared.

I also tested with various weapons options. Ever wondered just how much better a P-47 with 6 guns and light ammo turns compared to 8 guns with heavy ammo? It's in the list.

I only tested one plane at every fuel %, the F4U-1D. But it will show just how important fuel load is in turning.

My figures are in Radius Feet and Degrees per Second to be consistent with Badboy's excellent doghouse charts.

In my testing I mostly only tested at No Flaps and Full Flaps. The reason is once you are in a edge of stall sustained turn fight you are hitting flaps as fast as you can get them down, so the intermediate flaps are not as important. However I did test enough at 1 notch and 2 notches to note that some planes turn WORSE with one notch of flaps than with no flaps. Notably the P-51 and the 109 series. In these planes you definitely want to get past one notch of flaps fast unless you are just using the flaps to slow down, but not turn.

IMHO the winners over the old model:
F4U series
109 series

The losers:
Ki-84 is no longer a full flaps uber turner, even a Niki will out turn it.
P-38s. (tested at 4 notches not full flaps. Full flaps is untestable)

The test procedure:
Test: 500 ft alt.  25% Fuel unless noted. Fuel Burn .0001. Stall Limiter: OFF. Combat Trim: OFF. WEP: ON. All turns Counter Clockwise. Altitude maintained +/- 50 ft. Speed maintained +/- 3 mph. E6B used to watch speed. Three circles turned after above Alt and Speed stable. Turns made on the edge of stall buffet. .Target command at 500 to provide an exact start/stop point for timing with a stopwatch. The most subjective part of the test was estimating the average speed over three circles.

Mosq's Sustained Turn List v 2.07: http://home.comcast.net/~hudcomp/AHII/Mosqs_Sustained_Turn_List_v207_5-9-06.pdf

Kweassa's Turn testing:http://home.comcast.net/~hudcomp/AHII/Kweassa_AHII_Turn_Performance.pdf
 
Notice all tests were turning left, counterclockwise. I tested enough planes to determine that it typically made only a slight difference whether turning left or right. To test all planes in both directions would have taken more time than I was willing to devote!  If you know a particular plane turns much better or worse left/right reply here and I'll test it to the right and add it's result to the list.

I'm looking forward to your feedback!

[Urchin]

Very nice.  Thank you for taking the time to research this.

I see that the Spit 16 has a slightly larger turn radius than the Spit 5 (462 ft vs 437 ft) but it gets around it faster (20.4 dps vs 19.6 dps).  

How can this be explained?  Does the Spit 16s extra horsepower pull it through the turn faster?  

Why does the Spit 14 seem to suffer so much in comparison?  It has a 541 ft radius and 19.3 dps, but the Spit 16 and Spit 14 are listed as having the same weight in the plane pages (8500 lbs).  The Griffon 65 in the Spit 14 should put out ~2035 hp, no idea how much the Spit 16's engine puts out (I guess I could go downstairs and look, I just dont care that much), but I'm sure it isn't more than that.  

So whats the deal?  Can someone explain how this all works?  

Just with different varients of the same model (I.e. Spit 5 vs 9 vs 16 vs 14), not completely different planes.

[MOSQ]

Urchin,

I'm no AE, but I can say that the extra HP in the 16 helps it a lot vs the 5. HP is important, all the planes I tested do better with their WEP on than off.  They fly slightly slower with WEP off, but turn worse.

I didn't post the speeds and times intentionally because the charts get too complicated, but here they are for the Spits:

Spit 1: No Flaps: 138 mph/44 sec; Full Flaps 100 mph/ 51 seconds
Spit 5 : 138 mph/ 47 seconds; 102mph / 55 sec
Spit 8:  163 mph / 45 seconds; 118 mph / 52 sec
Spit 9:  170 mph / 48 seconds; 124 mph / 55 sec
Spit 14: 169 mph / 48 seconds; 124mph / 56 sec
Spit 16: 159mph / 46 seconds; 112 mph / 53 sec

The time in seconds is for 3 circles. So as you can see if in three full circles the difference is only a second, you'd have to make a lot of circles to actually close or widen the gap. Pilot ability to hold a perfect stall turn would be much more important.

I also tested acceleration, at 500 ft.  the Spit 16 and Spit 14 have almost identical acceleration times from 150 to 250 mph. (Spit 16 18.2 secs, Spit 14 18.0 secs).

[bozon]

Thaks MOSQ, very interesting and good work.

I have to say I'm completely amazed by the F4U flaps. Without them it is ranked between the P47 and the F6F - its radial brothers. With flaps it goes way WAY up the list, past even the N1K and right there with the spit 5.
The F4U-1 with full flaps looses only 1 dps compared to no flaps but cutts off about 250 (meter?) from the radius (37%).

Urchin, the thing that makes it complex is the need for sustaining the speed in the turn. stronger engine allows you to fly at a higher angle of attack (more drag) and still sustain the speed (lets ignore torque, stability and hanging on the prop issues - P38 assets).

Bozon

[Gunzo]

Originally posted by MOSQ
Folks,
There has been a vigorous discussion of the new flight model with 2.07.

Excellent work MOSQ!

Your findings validate some of the recent discussions regarding the 109F and the Spitfire.

Good work!

[Gunzo]

Originally posted by MOSQ
Spit 1: Full Flaps 100 mph/ 51 seconds

Can you check that, I can't get the Mk1 below 53 seconds. Averaging closer to 53.5 over several tests.

I get similar results to you for the 5 and 8 but not the 1?  

[MOSQ]

Gunzo and Bozon,

Thanks!

Gunzo, I just retested the Spit I. 52.5 secs W/O WEP, 51.1 with WEP.

Double check you had WEP on. One of the tricks to the testing is if it takes you too long when testing with No Flaps to get a good consistent test, then when you go to Full Flaps, your WEP time has run out so you have to re-up with a fresh plane.

If there's an Arena setting for adjusting the WEP like the Fuel Burn, I can't find it. Would have made my testing easier.

Also make sure you have Combat trim off. Adjust your elevator trim while turning to get a consistent, stable, turn. I found the typical best trim settings for 90% of the planes was with the elevators in neutral trim position.

Oh, and one other thing about my testing:

Your Mileage May Vary!

[Saxman]

I'd like to see a comparison of at least a couple planes under different fuel loads. Having the 1D under different loads is useful showing how it affects performance of an individual plane, but I think it'd be more useful to see how, say, the 1D with 50% fuel would compare to a N1K with 50%.

Although it's interesting that the F4U-1 with 25% fuel STILL slightly out-turns the 1D under the same, even though the F4U-1 carries slightly more gas with that loadout.

[E25280]

Originally posted by MOSQ
I tested enough planes to determine that it typically made only a slight difference whether turning left or right. To test all planes in both directions would have taken more time than I was willing to devote!  If you know a particular plane turns much better or worse left/right reply here and I'll test it to the right and add it's result to the list.

Just wondering if you tried out any of the 109s left vs right turn.  Of all the planes, the 109 definitely seems to me to have a preference for left turning vs right, but that could just be my perception.

[F4UDOA]

F6F seems to be turning a bit poorly??

It should be able to turn very well with no flaps. More along the lines of a Spit IX

Surprising.

[MOSQ]

Originally posted by F4UDOA
F6F seems to be turning a bit poorly??

It should be able to turn very well with no flaps. More along the lines of a Spit IX

Surprising.

The F6F radius is only 16 ft wider than a Spit 9 now, that's pretty close. Pilot skill will decide that contest.

And with full flaps the F6F handily cuts inside, F6F radius 492 to the Spit 9 of 530.

The F6F actually does much better now vs the Spit 9 than before the 2.07 drag change. Look at Kweassa's test, the Spit 9 was way ahead of the F6F.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by MOSQ
Urchin,

I'm no AE, but I can say that the extra HP in the 16 helps it a lot vs the 5. HP is important, all the planes I tested do better with their WEP on than off.  They fly slightly slower with WEP off, but turn worse.

I didn't post the speeds and times intentionally because the charts get too complicated, but here they are for the Spits:

Spit 1: No Flaps: 138 mph/44 sec; Full Flaps 100 mph/ 51 seconds
Spit 5 : 138 mph/ 47 seconds; 102mph / 55 sec
Spit 8:  163 mph / 45 seconds; 118 mph / 52 sec
Spit 9:  170 mph / 48 seconds; 124 mph / 55 sec
Spit 14: 169 mph / 48 seconds; 124mph / 56 sec
Spit 16: 159mph / 46 seconds; 112 mph / 53 sec

The time in seconds is for 3 circles. So as you can see if in three full circles the difference is only a second, you'd have to make a lot of circles to actually close or widen the gap. Pilot ability to hold a perfect stall turn would be much more important.

I also tested acceleration, at 500 ft.  the Spit 16 and Spit 14 have almost identical acceleration times from 150 to 250 mph. (Spit 16 18.2 secs, Spit 14 18.0 secs).

I tried your method, but I left combat trim on as most players use it. Full flaps, 25% fuel, left turns: mph/time/turn rate in degrees per second/turn radius.

Spit1: 98 mph / 53.28 / 20.27 / 406 ft
SeafireII: 101 mph / 54.42 / 19.85 / 427 ft
Spit5: 100 mph / 51.58 / 20.94 / 401 ft
Spit8: 112 mph / 49.37 / 21.88 / 430 ft
Spit9: 111 mph / 51.72 / 20.88 / 447 ft
Spit14: 126 mph / 53.37 / 20.24 / 523 ft
Spit16: 111 mph / 49.84 / 21.67 / 431 ft
Bf 109F-4: 114 mph / 49.02 / 22.03/ 435 ft
F4U-1D: 97 mph / 54.10 / 19.96 / 409 ft
Ki-84: 118 mph / 48.22 / 22.39 / 443 ft
N1K2-J: 111 mph / 48.15 / 22.42 / 416 ft

With the exception of the SpitI, each turn radius is somewhat smaller than your numbers. This either indicates that combat trim has a positive effect and/or I was able to fly the planes a bit slower or tighter around the circle.

Note the turn rates. The Bf 109F-4 has a faster turn rate than any Spitfire, while its turn radius is only superior to the Spit9 and Spit14. However, the faster turn rate shows that in a sustained turn, it will eventually run around the circle and catch every Spitfire from behind. Once that occurs, it simply yo-yos and falls in behind for a shot. The Dhog turns insanely tight circles, but its lower turn rate and only average climb rate undermine it against the Spit16. Likewise, the 109F-4 makes short work of the Dhog in a lufberry, having a considerably faster rate of turn and better vertical performance.

I also found the Spit8 and Spit16 very closely matched. In a dogfight between the two, the Spit16's roll rate will give it the edge.

You should also note how formidable the Niki is, with the highest turn rate and a very small turn radius.

My regards,

Widewing

[bozon]

Originally posted by MOSQ
The F6F actually does much better now vs the Spit 9 than before the 2.07 drag change. Look at Kweassa's test, the Spit 9 was way ahead of the F6F.

I agree. I flew the f6f a bit this tour in fighter town. It felt a little better than before. However, vs. spits, the real advantage the the ability to shed E quicker and get inside their circle. The spits far better turn rate (22 degrees per half turn for spit9, 45! degrees per half turn for spit8) and vertical performance mean hard time for the hellcat.

It is also slower than the spits 8,9,16 at almost all altitudes, but it is a fun and capable ride.

Bozon

[MOSQ]

WW,

Thanks for posting your tests. It of course sent me back to the experimental test facility.

At first I couldn't match your numbers. I turned combat trim on, and it made my numbers worse.

Then I tried pulling the circles with the plane in full shake. In my testing before I had pulled until the plane just started to shake, then backed off a tiny till it stopped. I kept the plane right on the edge of starting to shake, then back off. I did this because HTC had posted in another thread when the new shake was added to the game that once the plane starts shaking, the plane is losing lift.

However that is not the case. By flying with the plane in full shake I was able to match or exceed all your posted numbers. Then I turned CT off again and did even better. For example my new Spit 5 test was 98 mph in 49.8 seconds.

I also watched the G-Meter and saw that in full shake the G's don't decrease until you pull past full shake and the plane really does lose lift.

I don't believe it will change the rank order since I tested all the planes with the same consistent way.  Even if a few planes did better in the full shake test than others, I doubt it would change their overall rank by more than a plane or two.

I'm glad I've learned how to maximize my turn rate, I'm just not sure if it's worth going back and retesting al the planes if the rank order doesn't change. Maybe I'll test the top 15 of them and see if there are any rank changes....

Thanks again for your feedback.

[culero]

Mosq, I looked at several planes in both sorts of your list and noted they have different numbers listed for turn radius in the sorted-by-TR-ascending and sorted-by-name-alphabetically lists. Why is that?

culero