Combat flaps

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by bozon


The thing is that when reports are being specific, they mention use of only small flap deflection. In AH we are merrily using full flaps at the landing setting. I guess they feared stalls and spins much more than we do.

Tis the joy of knowing we're not really gonna die if we screw up

I always love it when I'm hanging on the deck with a Spit in my 38G.  I've got full flaps out and he's got his flaps out, and I'm thinking  "yeah right", this would have really happened

[Bino]

Several Japanese fighters had combat flaps (for example Ki-43 "Oscar" and Ki-84 "Frank") in order to maintain the same manueverability as earlier planes (like the Ki-27 "Nate").  Both the IJN and IJA pilots favored a nimble plane over a fast plane.  Didn't work out too well for them in the long run.

[Benny Moore]

It seems that there may be some confusion about terminology.  "Combat flaps" or "maneuver flaps" is a term that means that there is a stop on the flap lever that allows a small extension of flaps for assisting maneuvers.  However, it does not automatically mean that the aircraft in question has better flaps than another.  Some sources state that the FW-190 and late model P-51s had maneuver stops.

Fowler flaps, on the other hand, are vastly more efficient flaps than conventional or split flaps.  If I remember correctly, the Ki-84 and Ki-43 had Fowler flaps, just like the Lockheed P-38.  All production P-38s had Fowler flaps, but the maneuver stop was not introduced until the P-38F.

Dive flaps were a totally seperate mechanism.  Not quite the same as dive brakes, dive flaps were intended not to slow the airplane down but rather to restore lift to the wing in compressibility.  It also created some small nose-up pitch movement (although they do not in the simulator).

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Benny Moore
It also created some small nose-up pitch movement (although they do not in the simulator).

Yes they do.  If you have the Lightning's elevators trimmed to the approximate neutral position and engage the dive flaps the dive flaps will generate a small amount of lift.  They will not work properly if you have positive or negative elevator or combat trim engaged.  And just like real life, you can also use the dive flaps at high speeds (over 300mph IAS) to aid in high speed turns.


ack-ack

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Benny Moore
It seems that there may be some confusion about terminology.  "Combat flaps" or "maneuver flaps" is a term that means that there is a stop on the flap lever that allows a small extension of flaps for assisting maneuvers.  However, it does not automatically mean that the aircraft in question has better flaps than another.  Some sources state that the FW-190 and late model P-51s had maneuver stops.

F4Us all had a flap maneuver setting as well (20 degrees, I believe).

Bodhi, who has repaired, maintained and restored F4Us, described the flap function in a thread found on the Aircraft and Vehicle forum. He stated, "In F4u's, the selector will allow you to deploy the flaps at any speed down to 15 or 20 degrees and no damage will occur. The beauty of this system is that the flaps will not deploy above 250 kts or so, because there is an unloader valve in the hydraulics as well as a series of heavy duty springs on the actuator ends. What this does is allow the flaps to be extended, and if you go above 250kts or so, the springs do not have the tension to keep the flaps down, so they retract due to this lack of tension. As you slow down, they come back out as the force of the airflow does not out weigh the spring tension. So, in essence, the flaps come down almost instantly as you need them, making them much more effective than the average birds which must be deployed upon reaching a speed."

My regards,

Widewing

[BlauK]

Originally posted by Benny Moore
It also created some small nose-up pitch movement (although they do not in the simulator).

For some planes they create nose-up and for some others nose-down movement. It depends on the plane.
This was just recently covered in some other thread.

[Sombra]

Ki 43 :

One of the service trials aircraft was fitted with combat flaps which could be extended during flight to provide greater lift and to make it possible to maintain a much tighter turning circle. This modification was sufficiently successful that service pilots now commented favorably on the maneuverability. The aircraft was completely devoid of any vicious flying characteristics, and all controls were extremely sensitive.

The Koku Hombu agreed that the use of the combat flaps sufficiently improved the maneuverability to justify the issuance of a production order.


N1K1-J:

A unique feature of the N1K1-J was its set of combat flaps. Whereas flap extension was manually controlled on the Kyofu seaplane, the flaps on the landplane version had the ability automatically to change their angle in response to changes in g-forces during maneuvers. This automatic operation freed up the pilot from having to worry about his flaps during combat, and eliminated the possibility of a stall at an inopportune time.

[...]

However the aircraft had pleasant flying characteristics and the automatic combat flaps gave the aircraft exceptional maneuverability.

Will this ever be present in AH? I bet N1K2-J will have at least 3 graphical updates before we see this "low priority" feature.

[Stoney74]

Originally posted by Benny Moore
"Don't turn"?  Wherever did you get that notion?  The only country's fighters against which this tactic was recommended was Japan's, and that was because Japan mainly used outdated designs more akin to biplanes than high-speed fighters.  The United States Army Air Force's instructions for fighting the Luftwaffe were usually to "out-turn them."

"My own idea is that overshooting is a very good thing.  Speed is good and should never be lost...An attack of this kind prevents the combat from turning into a dogfight with both aircraft at the same speed, turning for an advantage..."

Duane Beeson, 4th FG, (ETO)

I don't just make this stuff up Benny, I read too...

[Squire]

Yup, if your talking real world tactics most USAAF fighter units never adopted "dogfight" tactics, but rather using speed and surprise. Thats certainly true with P-47, P-38 and P-51 units.

You would have to be insane to drop to 200 mph in WW2 and go round and round with Japanese fighters, there are very few accounts of this being done as a tactic.

Same holds true for the USN/USMC F4U and F6F units. They used team tactics and hit and run.

All that being said most air forces in WW2 did that, shooting down enemy planes invariably resulted from a surprise "bounce" shooting down an unsuspecting a/c. Thats how most of them were scored, Allied and Axis.

Even with Spitfires, read any account of RAF and RCAF units and almost all the kills come from a surprise attack, using speed and surprise, in, out, and its done. No round and round dogfights.

[SkyRock]

I wouldn't say "no" round and round dogfights, but very rarely did it get that far!  If you were bounced, you did everything you could to get out of there and fast.  If you were the one bouncing, you didn't always chase the guy down because that meant giving up your alt advantage!  I agree that most fighter on fighter kills were attained when the victim never knew or saw what hit him!:aok
 It reminds me of when Greg Boyington got shot down.  When the two enemies engaged, they all dove out and ran, the fight covered something like 170 miles.  It wasn't this big furball like we see in AH.  Most of the fellows that knew they were at a disadvantage sometime during the fight just ran like hell.

[Benny Moore]

Originally posted by Stoney74
"My own idea is that overshooting is a very good thing.  Speed is good and should never be lost...An attack of this kind prevents the combat from turning into a dogfight with both aircraft at the same speed, turning for an advantage..."

Duane Beeson, 4th FG, (ETO)

I don't just make this stuff up Benny, I read too...

Woohoo, I love posting this stuff!

LtCol. Mark E. Hubbard, CO of the 20th FG: The P-38 will out-turn any enemy fighter in the air up to 25,000 ft,..." "To break off combat, out-climb him if under 20,000 ft. Out-turn him and head for some help. We can outrun him up to 25,000 ft with an even start." Osprey Aircraft of the Aces #31- VIII Fighter Command at War -Long Reach-The Official Training Document Compiled from the Experiences of the Fighting Escorts of the 'Mighty Eighth', compiled by Michael O'Leary, 2000Pages 80 and 97.

Capt. Maurice R. McLary, 55th Fs, 20FG: "...I would say that anyone flying a P-38 should have no fear of any enemy aircraft - even dogfighting a single-engined fighter at a decent altitude. I consider anything below 20,000 ft a decent altitude for a P-38." Osprey Aircraft of the Aces #31- VIII Fighter Command at War -Long Reach-The Official Training Document Compiled from the Experiences of the Fighting Escorts of the 'Mighty Eighth', compiled by Michael O'Leary, 2000, Page 106.

Capt. Merle B. Nichols, 79thFS/20th FG: "After making a break, if we can make the enemy commit himself by turning with us or or doing anything but a split-S, we can usually be on the offensive in a matter of seconds." "When on the deck, if both engines are running okay - full RPM and maximum manifold pressure - the Hun does not have an aircraft that can catch us." Osprey Aircraft of the Aces #31- VIII Fighter Command at War -Long Reach-The Official Training Document Compiled from the Experiences of the Fighting Escorts of the 'Mighty Eighth', compiled by Michael O'Leary, 2000, page 107.

[Stoney74]

Originally posted by Benny Moore
Woohoo, I love posting this stuff!

My quote came out of the same book.  Except from a P-47/P-51 pilot...

Oh yeah, and by the way, only one of those you mentioned above was an Ace (Hubbard) and he got killed in early '44 "dogfighting"  He had a grand total of 2.5 kills with the 20th FG.  Beeson had 12 kills in P-47's.

Not taking anything away from the P-38 guys, but I don't think their experience was typical of the rest of 8 Fighter Command.

[Benny Moore]

I'm not saying that boom and zoom was not normal.  I'm just saying that dogfighting seems to have been fairly common also.

[Benny Moore]

Originally posted by Stoney74
only one of those you mentioned above was an Ace (Hubbard) and he got killed in early '44 "dogfighting"  He had a grand total of 2.5 kills with the 20th FG.

Actually, Hubbard got shot down by flak and captured.  He always hated the P-38, but that was because of the high altitude problems.

[Stoney74]

Originally posted by Benny Moore
Actually, Hubbard got shot down by flak and captured.  He always hated the P-38, but that was because of the high altitude problems.

Sorry, I read on another website that he was killed.  Regardless, the P-38 groups had some of the worst kill/loss ratios of any 8th Fighter Command Groups.  This was due to a lot of reasons, a lot of them non-tactical.  And again, not taking anything away from those guys.  But, even the P-38 pilots in Long Reach talk repeatedly about the importance of speed, speed, and more speed.  

Hit and run was the name of the game for the U.S. in almost every theater.