Author Topic: Combat flaps  (Read 2469 times)

Offline Apeking

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Combat flaps
« on: December 17, 2006, 07:13:17 PM »
This is a historical question rather than an Aces High discussion. It seems that the American aircraft industry during the Aces High period was very much in favour of combat flaps, manoeuvring flaps, what-have-you. All of the American planes have extremely useful flaps that can be deployed at high speed. It bolsters my psychological impression that the American planes are more solidly-built than the others.

In contrast, the other nations did not seem too hot on the idea of high-speed combat flaps. The British aircraft seem to have flaps that were designed purely for landing and take-off. (I have just been reading "First Light", a book by WW2 Spitfire pilot Geoffrey Wellum. He describes his part in Operation Pedestal, in which a flight of standard land-based Spitfire Vs were flown from HMS Furious in order to reinforce the defence of Malta. In order to take off from the carrier, the flaps were held in an intermediate position with wooden chocks; once airborne, the pilots opened the flaps fully so that the chocks could fall out. (Just as Wellum takes off, one of the other carriers, HMS Eagle, is hit and sunk by a U-Boat.))

The Messerschmitt and Lavochkin designs have leading-edge slats but again the flaps seem to have been designed more for landing or very slow-speed manoeuvres under adverse flying conditions. I haven't read very many historical accounts by109 pilots but I get the general impression that they did not expect to use the flaps whilst fighting. This is particularly galling in the case of the late-model 109s, which would benefit from high-speed flaps. And the same is true of the 190s, especially given their poor turn radius.

I suppose the Japanese designers felt that their aircraft turned well enough without having to use flaps. Perhaps the people at Hawker and Supermarine felt the same way. But it seems odd that the trend of useful high-speed flaps is so dominant amongst American planes; what was the general philosophy amongst American aircraft designers in the run-up to WW2?

Offline Softail

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Combat flaps
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2006, 10:39:27 PM »
Flaps?  Are you saying these planes have FLAPS?

;-P

Softail

Offline Benny Moore

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Combat flaps
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2006, 11:23:56 PM »
The general design theory for American aircraft was, "The faster, the better."

Offline Stoney74

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Combat flaps
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2006, 11:39:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Benny Moore
The general design theory for American aircraft was, "The faster, the better."


And to compliment this, the tactics were "the faster, the better, and don't turn..."

Offline Benny Moore

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Combat flaps
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2006, 11:55:22 PM »
"Don't turn"?  Wherever did you get that notion?  The only country's fighters against which this tactic was recommended was Japan's, and that was because Japan mainly used outdated designs more akin to biplanes than high-speed fighters.  The United States Army Air Force's instructions for fighting the Luftwaffe were usually to "out-turn them."

Offline Guppy35

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Combat flaps
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2006, 12:30:25 AM »
My favorite 38 'combat flaps' combat report quote, from a pilot in the 370th FG 9th AF flying in the ETO in a 38J-10 which would be what we have in AH.  Lots of combat flaps used in a turnfight down low.

I love his last remarks about the fight against the 109 on the deck :)


“Approximately 15 Me 109s came down on Blue Flight and we broke left.  I then made a vertical right turn and observed Blue Two below and close and Blue Four was ahead and slightly above me.  I glanced behind me and saw four Me 109s closing on my tail fast and within range so I broke left and down in a Split S.  I used flaps to get out and pulled up and to the left.  I then noticed a single Me 109 on my tail and hit the deck in a sharp spiral.

We seemed to be the only two planes around so we proceeded to mix it up in a good old-fashioned dogfight at about 1000 feet.  This boy was good and he had me plenty worried as he sat on my tail for about five minutes, but I managed to keep him from getting any deflection.  I was using maneuvering flaps often and finally got inside of him.  I gave him a short burst at 60 degrees, but saw I was slightly short so I took about 2 radii lead at about 150 yards and gave him a good long burst.  There were strikes on the cockpit and all over the ship and the canopy came off.  He rolled over on his back and seemed out of control so I closed in and was about to give him a burst at 0 deflection when he bailed out at 800 feet.

Having lost the squadron I hit the deck for home.  Upon landing I learned that my two 500 pound bombs had not released when I had tried to jettison them upon being jumped.  As a result I carried them throughout the fight.”
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline trotter

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Combat flaps
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2006, 12:37:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
Having lost the squadron I hit the deck for home.  Upon landing I learned that my two 500 pound bombs had not released when I had tried to jettison them upon being jumped.  As a result I carried them throughout the fight.”




that good 109 stick probably thought he was a noob

Offline Benny Moore

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Combat flaps
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2006, 12:39:34 AM »
That's awesome!  Where did that quote come from?

Offline Guppy35

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Combat flaps
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2006, 12:39:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by trotter
that good 109 stick probably thought he was a noob


In terms of the 38, this guy was.  The 370th came to England in May 44 having trained on Jugs.  They transitioned to 38s and took them into combat with a lot less 38 time then those that trained on em in the states. This fight took place in July 44.

I'm guessing the 109 driver wasn't a vet either, but the 38 driver was turning with him on the deck, while lugging two 500 pounders and using combat flaps.

Tough spot to be.
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Guppy35

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Combat flaps
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2006, 12:40:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Benny Moore
That's awesome!  Where did that quote come from?


370th FG history by Jay Jones.  It's from the combat report written at the time.

Lots of examples of combat flap use by those ground attack 38 guys who were often bounced by higher 109s and 190s, yet held their own.
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline bozon

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Combat flaps
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2006, 01:41:51 AM »
P-38s have lots of references for using flaps in combat. It seems to be standard practice. For the other us fighters, such as the P51, there are examples of using flaps but they seem to be more like a "crazy stunt I pulled" when reported by the pilot. In one of the stories I recall the pilot stating that he used flaps in a zero alt circle fight with a 109, against specific orders they got NOT to use flaps.

All flaps use references I remember were in low alt dogfights. Most likely due to the different nature of these fights compared with high alt fights. At high alts speed and zoom was much more important than turning and the fight usually ended with one side disengaging with a dive to the clouds.

I also recall a few LW pilots mentioning they used flaps.

The thing is that when reports are being specific, they mention use of only small flap deflection. In AH we are merrily using full flaps at the landing setting. I guess they feared stalls and spins much more than we do.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline Benny Moore

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Combat flaps
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2006, 01:46:40 AM »
P-38 pilots usually used the maneuver setting (eight degrees, one notch in Aces High II) for fighting Nazi fighters, but when fighting Jap Zekes they sometimes used full flaps.  And it was not only the aces who did it.

The reason P-38 pilots tended to not use flaps at high altitude was because above their critical altitudes they could not get enough power to effectively utilize the Fowlers.

Offline BlauK

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Combat flaps
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2006, 05:33:14 AM »
Benny,

I have never before heard of airplanes having been accepted as political party members.


  BlauKreuz - Lentolaivue 34      


Offline bozon

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Combat flaps
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2006, 06:10:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BlauK
I have never before heard of airplanes having been accepted as political party members.

Caligula appointed his horse senator, so I guess anything is possible in politics.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline Kweassa

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Combat flaps
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2006, 06:32:38 AM »
As an expression of utter agreement, I give bozon a big kiss.

 *Mmmmmmwah*