Author Topic: A better ENY system that would eliminate the need to split arenas  (Read 904 times)

Offline Ghastly

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Since I hate making a wish without being able to offer a way to achieve it, I've been considering for some time now the artificial game play constraints of ENY and the arena split. I believe that there may be a better way to achieve the effects that both are meant to introduce to the game, without many of the unfortunate side effects where the current implementations impact areas of game play adversely, especially at the individual level. This is something that I think many players besides myself would like to see.

What I'd like to propose for discussion is some variation of the following two-part implementation...
 
Part one - Open the arena in stages!
What if, Instead of trying to size the maps smaller and limit the total number of players in any one arena, we used the largest maps possible but the arena itself essentially adjusted "size" based upon the number of players playing?  Imagine an arena that's just reset at 3 am and is totally empty.  Imagine if this arena had only the 2 fields for each side that were closest in distance to the 2 other sides fields enabled, such that there are 4 fields total for each side enabled, 2 Knight to the closest 2 Rook, 2 Knight to the closest 2 Bishop, etc. All other fields for each side are greyed out - you can't spawn there, and you can't damage anything if you attack them (although perhaps you could rearm there).

This would mean that as the arena begins to fill, the gameplay is concentrated to a few fields, bunching up the game play into a few areas when it needs to be. As such, it limit some of the least attractive aspects of game play associated with low numbers, where when there are only a few players on it's very easy to avoid fighting anyone if you want, and very frustrating for players who are trying to find a fight, or defend.

Now, imagine more people come in to the arena.  As more players come on, at certain thresholds, more fields open.  Perhaps at 30 players another field pair is opened, and at 50, another 2 (now 5 total per side), and at 70, another 4, and at 90, another 8 (17 total field pairs) etc., until you reach the point where all the fields are open.  And as players leave, at a certain threshold the field pairs begin to close - perhaps with a 10 minute warning that the fields are going to close, and perhaps some sort of a map indicator as well that those fields will soon become inactive.  There should also be some sort of a gap (say 25%) between the number required to open field pairs and the at which they close again (so for example, if at 90 the number of field pairs opened per side is 18, it doesn't drop back to 10 until the number of players drops below 67.)

This forces the map to be small when things need to be bunched up, but lets it be spread out as much as it needs to be when that's required too.

Part two... Using ENY instead of split arena's to spread things out in a balanced manner as numbers increase:

Imagine if, instead of getting an unlimited number of aircraft at each open field, you got only a certain number of aircraft, plus a number that is capped at some percentage of the total players in the arena (lets say for example 3 aircraft, plus 1 for every 20 players playing).  So in this example, if there are 100 players on, there would be a cap of 8 of each aircraft type at each field.  As more players enter the arena, the caps go up, and the number of players decrease, the caps (and the number of aircraft available if they exceed the caps at the time) go down. (Patience, we'll get to it...)

Now, imagine if the aircraft taken from the fields by players were replenished at a rate that was dependent upon it's ENY.  For example, imagine the formula was something like "ENY VALUE" divided by 20.  This would mean that normally, a 40 ENY aircraft would be added once every 1/2 minute up to the cap value. So if a squadron takes off in all 7 Emil's, a few minutes later, there are a full complement of them again.  But what about an aircraft with an ENY of 5?  It would replenish once every 4 minutes in this example.

This would tend to spread the front out, because if it were implemented at the right values, if too many of the players attempted to "horde" one small section of the map they'd quickly run out of the best planes, and would either need to use lesser mounts (which is essentially a localized ENY) or spread things out.  Either one would tend to break the horde - a good thing, and one that would engender healthy game play over a larger area without resorting to the necessity of applying an inflexible and arbitrary split with the associated caps to do so by forcing a segment of the player base into another arena.

But what about balancing?  Imagine if the current "ENY" formula instead of limiting what aircraft you can or cannot take off as is currently the case were instead to create a value that gets added to - perhaps in some fashion multiplied to - the replenishment rate divisor discussed above? 

Let's say the numbers are off balance such that under the current system, we've just hit an ENY of 5, where currently the "best" tier of aircraft would suddenly be unavailable under the current system.  We all know what happens now - a bunch of folks begin to sit in the tower waiting for their ride to become available, missions blow up, etc., etc. 

But what would happen if it were applied to the replenishment rate instead ( as one example, if perhaps it was multiplied by .50 and then mu liplied to the rate)? For one thing, it would be a lot gentler, far less disruptive on an individual basis, and yet still have the same effect over time of slowing down the side with the greater numbers if implemented at the right values.  You'd have less planes - and many less of the best planes - to divide among more pilots. But doing it this way means that the player still has a choice - take lesser rides at the front, or if they wanted to, back up a few fields, and fly rides from further back. Either way, they are going to be less effective and less "overwhelming" against the lower numbered side.  And at the same time, if the players we are discussing happen to be the lightly concentrated defenders in the less popular area of the map, they'd be mostly unaffected.  They'd still be getting their share of the planes at a reduced rate too of course - but would have many more to divide up per pilot. 

Please don't consider the numbers used as anything other than examples - I'm quite sure that they would need to be refined.  But what issues do you guys foresee  with something like the processes described (other than the most obvious one to me, which is that it might very well take more effort to code than it's worth)?

Generally, I like what ENY is intended to introduce to gameplay - a certain amount of adjustment in the amount of force the overweighted side can apply to their outnumbered opponents is good for game play.  What I don't like at times is that because ENY is globally applied (out of necessity at least as far as I can see, as every methodology I've considered for localized application of the current system has been fatally flawed) it means that at times, it can have a detrimental affect on areas of the map where the underdogs are the few players from the "overweighted side" that are defending against a larger number of players from another side. As well, ENY can lay waste to a mission setup faster than anything else in game. And I don't think anyone but a masochist would like the fact that it is often very disruptive to INDIVIDUAL gameplay because it's essentially arbitrary, extremely abrupt, and when it kicks in, inflexible in the extreme.

Generally, I like what the arena split is meant to accomplish, which is in large part addressing the fact that with unlimited plane choices after a certain threshold number of players is exceeded the game play devolves into an unappetizing pattern composed primarily of 3 largely unstoppable hordes mostly avoiding each other.  What I don't like about it is that while capping the number of players in the arena minimizes the horde mentality somewhat, at times it's at best minimally effective. And once again, only a masochist would enjoy the issues that arise when they are the player that's excluded from the arena they'd prefer to play in, which is arbitrary, abrupt and utterly inflexible on the individual level.

These ideas implemented as a package would I believe keep all the best parts and fix many of the flaws. Not the least of which is that both ENY and the arena caps as currently implemented are about as pleasant and gentle as getting clocked in the teeth with a bat when they kick in.

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Offline ian5440

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Re: A better ENY system that would eliminate the need to split arenas
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2008, 09:41:24 PM »
Wow that a long read,
but its def though out and i like it  :aok
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Offline Redlegs

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Re: A better ENY system that would eliminate the need to split arenas
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2008, 09:46:08 PM »
I read Part One. Tired, and will read Part Two tomorrow. The only thing I have to add is, base capture. What prevents players on other teams from taking bases that aren't opened, undefended? They take the base with only a defense from the auto-ack. The only way it would work is if everything is indestructible at unopened fields. Other than that tidbit, I think it's a very good idea.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 11:15:58 PM by Redlegs »
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Offline kvuo75

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Re: A better ENY system that would eliminate the need to split arenas
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2008, 11:13:50 PM »
as for part 1, didn't HTC try something similar about a year ago?

I remember only 1 or 2 bases on each front were actually capturable at any given time on a large map, IIRC, the experiment didnt last more than a week.  that's where the "uncapturable" bases came from that we still have.




why artificially make maps smaller, when we have small maps already, is what I figure.



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Offline Ghastly

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Re: A better ENY system that would eliminate the need to split arenas
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2008, 11:24:20 PM »
Redlegs, since you couldn't damage anything at a field that's not open, I meant to imply that you would have no way to close it. 

kvuo, the difference would be that as soon as the arena has more than a certain minumum number of players, more fields open -so that by the time the arena has a couple of hundred players, the whole map is available for play.   And the idea is to not have to have two arenas and smaller maps, but to emulate that effect when necessary and avoid it when it's not conducive to good game play.

Thanks for the compliment Ian - I've been thinking this through for a while.   It just took being chaperone at an Anime convention to have the spare time to write it up...

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Offline Lusche

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Re: A better ENY system that would eliminate the need to split arenas
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2008, 11:37:37 PM »
I can imagine part 1 would be a map design and coding nightmare. The system would have to decide which bases would be open for each country, which could lead to very awkward situations. Player numbers go down, and suddenly you may not have any operational field to support a certain battle in progress. Would require lots of thoughts & very careful map design and implementation and I'm not convinced that would be worth the time.

Especially as it reduces the element of surprise considerably. While I find massive missions NOE'ing field after field for hours rather boring, the occasional strategic surprise keeps me (as a defender) on my toes, adds some additional flavor to it. Knowing the enemy can only attack at certain fields reduces the needs to think, to evaluate any patterns in enemy activity and to carefully monitoring the map.


as for part 1, didn't HTC try something similar about a year ago?
I remember only 1 or 2 bases on each front were actually capturable at any given time on a large map, IIRC, the experiment didn't last more than a week.  that's where the "uncapturable" bases came from that we still have.

That was quite different in some way as all fields were still open.
Of course all action concentrated on those few capturable fields, leading to megahordes, rather stale gameplay from a strategic point of view, very high combat altitudes (now that did I like! :)) and, most important, showed the need of very specifically designed maps for such a limiting approach.

Part II.. theres a point I might not understand yet:
" So in this example, if there are 100 players on, there would be a cap of 8 of each aircraft type at each field"

That meaning if 8 players took off in a given plane (La7, Spit, 110, Hurri D or whatever) from a certain field, I can't fly that plane from there?

If yes, that will get quickly very ugly on countrychannel. The so called "n00bs" will be yelled at not to fly this or that, because it's wasting the resources, and first time in AH2 that whine would really be true. And don't forget that spy thingy - People that just did fly on the other side and now flying a popular & limited plane from a key airfield... that won't end well ;)

I don't think that the individual choice of other players shout have a direct influence about the choices I have...

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Offline Ghastly

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Re: A better ENY system that would eliminate the need to split arenas
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2008, 08:08:13 AM »
Lusche, thanks for responding as well.  In order for you to ask some of the questions that you asked, I feel that I didn't make myself clear enough, so I'm going to use your post to clarify what I meant by way of responding to your questions.

I can imagine part 1 would be a map design and coding nightmare. The system would have to decide which bases would be open for each country, which could lead to very awkward situations.
It was my intent the limitations on what fields were open would only take effect during low cap periods, such that by the time that you had a reasonably populated arena, the entire arena would be open.  As such, there would be no real need to worry about that from a design point of view - what I would expect is that the field pairs would open in the increasing order of their distance to the closest enemy field to that county.  That'd be the easy part - and would of course vary depending on the state of the map, so that when 3 field pairs per side are open, the 3 fields that are closest to the nearest Knight field and the 3 fields that are closest to the nearest Bishop field (in terms of linear distance) from their respective Rook fields would be the one's opened. I didn't mention it, but in terms of design I would expect that if a field is captured, another field pair would be opened immediately between those two countries so that the country that just lost a field has the same number of field pairs (and the same notification process that's discussed would start against the "extra" field that the country that took the field now has, so that folks will finish up there and the number of fields would be equalized). What might potentially not be trivial would be the fact that the game would need to be enhanced to support the "if it ain't open, it can't be damaged piece or spawned from" piece.
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Player numbers go down, and suddenly you may not have any operational field to support a certain battle in progress. Would require lots of thoughts & very careful map design and implementation and I'm not convinced that would be worth the time.

You are correct, at some point the system would need to scale back the number of fields that are open.  And again, I'd close them in the order of distance to closest enemy field (in reverse order - the fields that have the longest distance to the closest enemy field at that point would be closed in subsequent order). And no doubt about it, someone at some point is going to be using one or more of them when it's time to close them down.  But again, this would only start to take effect when the number of players has dropped significantly, and to further mitigate the negative impact, I'd expect to see a significant notification period (10 minutes?  30 minutes?), and something obvious on the map indicating that they'd be closing eventually, so folks would know that they need to "finish up" in that area of the map and have a reasonable amount of time to do so.

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Especially as it reduces the element of surprise considerably. While I find massive missions NOE'ing field after field for hours rather boring, the occasional strategic surprise keeps me (as a defender) on my toes, adds some additional flavor to it. Knowing the enemy can only attack at certain fields reduces the needs to think, to evaluate any patterns in enemy activity and to carefully monitoring the map.

Again, only at low cap times - where folks are currently frustrated with a handful of players rattling around in a huge map.  As soon as the bare minimum number of players to support reasonable game play in the entire map are playing, the whole thing would be open.   And since it takes a reasonable number of players in a reasonably populated arena to run anything like the "massive NOE'ing missions", by the time there are enough players to do them I'd expect the whole arena to be available to do it in.   

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That was quite different in some way as all fields were still open.
Of course all action concentrated on those few capturable fields, leading to megahordes, rather stale gameplay from a strategic point of view, very high combat altitudes (now that did I like! :)) and, most important, showed the need of very specifically designed maps for such a limiting approach.

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Part II.. theres a point I might not understand yet:
" So in this example, if there are 100 players on, there would be a cap of 8 of each aircraft type at each field"

That meaning if 8 players took off in a given plane (La7, Spit, 110, Hurri D or whatever) from a certain field, I can't fly that plane from there?

Yes, that is what it would mean, but the part I failed miserably to make clear is that it should be configured so that it's so generous that under normal game play it's completely non binding.  With 100 players divided between 3 countries, and a cap of 8 planes of every available type at every field,  if the players on each side are flying from 4 fields that's 1 aircraft of every type for every player, and 4 new ones every 4 minutes at those fields even of the lowest ENY plane - you should never or almost never have to even think about it at the individual level.  The important point though being that if it isn't generous enough at the numbers I'm using as an example when everyone is "playing fair", it should be increased so that it is.   
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If yes, that will get quickly very ugly on countrychannel. The so called "n00bs" will be yelled at not to fly this or that, because it's wasting the resources, and first time in AH2 that whine would really be true. And don't forget that spy thingy - People that just did fly on the other side and now flying a popular & limited plane from a key airfield... that won't end well ;)

Exactly - I don't know if you played WWIIOL when attrition was first implemented, but it was UUUUGLY.  Not because the system was flawed but because aircraft became a scarce commodity, and each action of each and every player had ramifications.  But I want to get accross that I'm not in any way trying to implement an "attrition system", just suggesting what might be a better way to perform balancing, and I don't intend for it to ever become a binding factor as long as things are evenly spread out and balanced between sides.  What I would expect is that if there are 600 players in an arena, and your side has 250 of them and the other guys 175 each, that the best aircraft are rare for you guys to fly and easy for them.  Or if you each have 200 players and 100 players from your side decides to mob out of a single field, that you have to do so making some concession to numbers.

 
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I don't think that the individual choice of other players shout have a direct influence about the choices I have...

But, Lusche - the thing is, they already do.  And what's worse, they do so in an arbitrary and very draconian fashion.  If enough players choose to play in a particular arena, you are forced to play somewhere else, or wait, if you want to play there too. (Fair enough, but arbitrary and draconian.)  If enough players choose to play on your side in the arena you choose to play in, your choice of aircraft is abruptly limited (again, fair, but arbitrary and draconian).  And of course if players played differently than they do in large groups with unlimited resources in the first place, there would be no need for any of this - it would be moot.  (Utopian and certainly not human nature, but moot nonetheless)

This is what I think this would fix, and if it were to work as I envision it, would do so in a manner that's much less abrupt and eliminate many of the recurrent complaints. (And bring it's own, such as "This SUCKS! We were THIS close to taking A20 and it went "dead"!"  As it is now though, it's like driving a car in traffic with the throttle pegged to the floor, by way of turning the ignition on ad off to control speed.  A throttle would be a whole lot easier on the passengers and make the trip so much more enjoyable ....

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Offline zoozoo

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Re: A better ENY system that would eliminate the need to split arenas
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2008, 09:06:45 AM »
great idea!
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Offline angelsandair

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Re: A better ENY system that would eliminate the need to split arenas
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2008, 09:11:46 AM »
Couldn't we just split to 2 sides and kill eachother from there? :rolleyes:

That would get rid of the need for a 2nd arena.
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: A better ENY system that would eliminate the need to split arenas
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2008, 09:24:31 AM »
I'm all for it.  The big huge arena with 100 people in it seems like such a waste of time.

Can I make a small suggestion?  Add aircraft strats to the map to affect how many aircraft the enemy has in reserve. :t
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Offline mensa180

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Re: A better ENY system that would eliminate the need to split arenas
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2008, 10:09:54 AM »
4 aircraft every 4 minutes?  I do have to think about that at an individual level, my playing style being suicidal, I could use a dozen planes in 4 minutes.  Though I'm not sure how much it would effect me, being at 38 dweeb.

In any case, it's a good case Ghastly, at least you spent the time to think it all up and made the effort.  Most people just whine and have nothing productive to say.
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Offline Ghastly

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Re: A better ENY system that would eliminate the need to split arenas
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2008, 03:31:30 PM »
Thanks guys.

Anaxagoras, That's exactly what I mean by saying I'm not proposing an attrition system.  Introducing a tool that can be manipulated by your side to deny game tools to the opposing teams is a very very different and even more delicate thing than introducing a tool that changes how you affect your own side based because of numbers and the game play choices by the majority of your side's players.  In short, it's outside the scope of what I'm putting forward, although attrition could of course be added by HTC if they chose (but they could add it at any time they wanted anyway regardless).

Angelsandair, I don't believe that having 3 sides instead of 2 is what caused HTC to decide that too many people in an arena led to unhealthy game play.   And I know from past sims that with only 2 sides, players have much less flexibility in terms of play choice and variety, both of which translate to "boring at times". 

Anyway, thanks again for reading it through and commenting.

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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: A better ENY system that would eliminate the need to split arenas
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2008, 12:20:46 AM »
The only thing that explains the lack of response to this thread is the OP's intelligence. :P
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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: A better ENY system that would eliminate the need to split arenas
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2008, 08:57:13 AM »
I think the ENY should be more harsh.  By that I mean the scale needs to be more dynamic AND more quick on the draw when it comes to balancing the arenas.  There are far too many Nik2, La7, and Spit16 as compared to other planes that were far more previlant in WWII.  Yeah, I've heard this isnt a WWII sim but rather an air combat sim using WWII planes so the usage scale in WWII is moot, but still. 

I like the ENY system currently in place.  The split arenas is a minor headache that can be tackled by just watching the ratio of players to open slots.  If te ratio is 302/300, then there will be a few slots open soon so hang out for a bit and just watch.  If the ratio is 385/200, then one might as well move into the other arena until the ratio evens out.
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Offline Lusche

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Re: A better ENY system that would eliminate the need to split arenas
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2008, 09:05:44 AM »
  By that I mean the scale needs to be more dynamic AND more quick on the draw when it comes to balancing the arenas.  There are far too many Nik2, La7, and Spit16 as compared to other planes that were far more previlant in WWII.  Yeah, I've heard this isnt a WWII sim but rather an air combat sim using WWII planes so the usage scale in WWII is moot, but still. 

ENY can't (and wasn't intended to) counter the fact that players tend to gravitate to a a selected few planes. The plane usage scale as such wouldn't be much different, when people can't fly the most popular ENY 5 planes, they will just go to the  3-4 next "best" planes available. There is no way that AH2 usage can ever even vaguely reflect real WW2 numbers, especially as the combat environment is completely different.
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