difference in FW types

[Flyboy]

what the different between the Fw190-a3 Fw190-a4 and the Fw190-a5 ?

i just thought of why we have in AH the A5 varient and came to the conclusion i know nothing about the Fw190

[Batz]

FW 190A-2

Heavier armament when a new synchroniser for the Mauser MG151/20E cannon became available. The vertical stabilizers were also enlarged. Installed with a modified 801C-2 engine.

Total built: 420

Power plant:
BMW 801C-2 1550 hp (1140 kW)

Armament:
2 x Rheinmetall-Borsig MG FF 20mm cannon
2 x Mauser MG151/20E 20mm cannon
2 x MG17 7.9mm machine gun

FW 190A-3

Improved more powerful BMW 801D-2 engine

Delivery: Spring 1942

Power plant:
BMW 801D-2 1730 hp (1272 kW)

Armament:
2 x Rheinmetall-Borsig MG FF 20mm cannon
2 x Mauser MG151/20E 20mm cannon
2 x MG17 7.9mm machine gun

FW 190A-4

Installed with BMW 801D-2 engines with the ability to install the MW50 Methanol/Water injection system to boost engine power to 2100hp for 10 minutes. However the MW50 wasn't widely available and only used in a few A-4s in “vengeance raids” against England.

Delivery: July 1942

Power plant:
BMW 801D-2 1730 hp (1272 kW) (MW50 capable)

Armament:
2 x Rheinmetall-Borsig MG FF 20mm cannon
2 x Mauser MG151/20E 20mm cannon
2 x MG17 7.9mm machine gun

FW 190A-5

The engine mount was extended to offset the change in centre of gravity in anticipation of heavier armament in the future.

Delivery: November 1942

Power plant:
BMW 801D-2 1730 hp (1272 kW)


Armament:
2 x Rheinmetall-Borsig MG FF 20mm cannon
2 x Mauser MG151/20E 20mm cannon
2 x MG17 7.9mm machine gun

FW 190A-6

The MG FF 20mm cannons were replaced with MG151/20E 20 mm cannons. The wings were redesigned for the heavier cannon mount and had larger ammunition boxes.

Delivery: July 1943

Power plant:
BMW 801D-2 1730 hp (1272 kW)
 
Armament:
4 x Mauser MG151/20E 20mm cannon
2 x MG17 7.9mm machine gun

FW 190A-7

The MG17 7.9mm machine guns were replaced with the MG131 13mm machine guns.

Delivery: Nov 1943

Power plant:
BMW 801D-2 1730 hp (1272 kW)

Armament:
4 x Mauser MG151/20E 20mm cannon
2 x MG131 13mm machine gun

FW 190A-8

Delivery: n/a

Power plant:
BMW 801D-2 1730 hp (1272 kW)
 
Armament:
4 x Mauser MG151/20E 20mm cannon
2 x MG131 13mm machine gun

FW 190A-9
The A9 was supposed to be powered by the more powerful 1765 kW (2400 hp) BMW 801 F engines. However these were unavailable and the 801TS was used instead. Plans to produce an A10 variant with the 801 F engines ended with the war.

Delivery: Autumn 1944

Power plant:
BMW 801TS 2000 hp (1470 kW)

Armament:
4 x Mauser MG151/20E 20mm cannon
2 x MG131 13mm machine gun

[GODO]

Originally posted by Batz
However the MW50 wasn't widely available

What was not widely available? The devices and pipes installed in the 190A4 or the mixture itself? Methanol was very cheap, and water was for free. As far as I know, MW50 is no more than a simple mixture 50% methanol and 50% water, without any kind of special and rare ingredients. MW25 and MW75 mixtures were also used.

[Tarmac]

Just out of curiosity Batz, what does the E in MG151/20E stand for?  How is the E different from the standard MG151/20?

[crabofix]

Tarmac, the "E" stand for "electric" primed rounds instead of percussion primed.
The change took place sometime around 1940. To the 151/20E, a suffix of A or B could be added, depending on the manufacture of the Electric fire system.

[Batz]

Gobo,

I believe that the a4s just came from the factory with the "plumbing" but still needed to be fit with the mw50 "kit". Maybe HoHun or some one can clear that up. IIRC these "kits" werent widely available until '44.

I have read where the MW 50 installation on the BMW801 engine was troublesome. I always read mw50 fouled the spark plugs. I assume it was more to it then that.

In 1943 "erhöhte Notleistung" was tested on the 190a5.  Erhöhte Notleistung was easy to install. C3 fuel was used like water/methanol to cool down the mixture so that you can increase the pressure in the cylinders. It could be used up to 5500m.

IIRC erhöhte Notleistung wasn't serialized until the summer of '44 on the a8.

bMW801 D - with mw50 = 2100ps / 2700 rpm (??ata)
bmw801 D - erhöhte Notleistung = 2050ps / 2700 rpm (??ata)

Tarmac,

What Crabo said

[Flyboy]

Originally posted by Batz

FW 190A-3

Improved more powerful BMW 801D-2 engine

Delivery: Spring 1942

Power plant:
BMW 801D-2 1730 hp (1272 kW)

Armament:
2 x Rheinmetall-Borsig MG FF 20mm cannon
2 x Mauser MG151/20E 20mm cannon
2 x MG17 7.9mm machine gun

FW 190A-4

Installed with BMW 801D-2 engines with the ability to install the MW50 Methanol/Water injection system to boost engine power to 2100hp for 10 minutes. However the MW50 wasn't widely available and only used in a few A-4s in “vengeance raids” against England.

Delivery: July 1942

Power plant:
BMW 801D-2 1730 hp (1272 kW) (MW50 capable)

Armament:
2 x Rheinmetall-Borsig MG FF 20mm cannon
2 x Mauser MG151/20E 20mm cannon
2 x MG17 7.9mm machine gun

FW 190A-5

The engine mount was extended to offset the change in centre of gravity in anticipation of heavier armament in the future.

Delivery: November 1942

Power plant:
BMW 801D-2 1730 hp (1272 kW)


Armament:
2 x Rheinmetall-Borsig MG FF 20mm cannon
2 x Mauser MG151/20E 20mm cannon
2 x MG17 7.9mm machine gun


 

thanks batz

so basicly a 190A4 is a 190a3 with added WEP? (from that i assume the the 190a3 didnt have WEP at all?)

and a 190A5 is a 190A4 with a longer nose?

those are the only differents between the modells? seems like really minor changes IMO


allso what is difference between the to 20mm cannons?

[Batz]

Well yeah.

The main difference between the a3 and a4 was that with the a4 the BMW 801 D-2 engine was adapted to use mw50 on the production line. MW50 was never used on the A series 190s except maybe on a few jabo a4s and a few other oddballs. This could have been due to the delays in MW 50 device production, or because of the overall difficulties with the mw50 installation on the BMW 801 D engine itself.

Other differences:

Replacement of the FuG 7a radio set by the FuG 16z.

Th vertical line antenna mount was placed on the fin. This is the one noticeable visual change.

Most a4s also flew without the mgff installed (just 2 x Mauser MG151/20E 20mm cannon)

With the a5 the design team decided that with added armament the c of g would move forward. To over come this they moved the engine forward. The a5 was 9.10m in length.

So the a5 is longer the earlier A's.

Other changes:

Some small equipment changes:
new electrical artificial horizon
modernized oxygen respirator
FuG 25a IFF device.

Rear fuselage section was moved back and the equipment compartment cover was larger.

With the c of g problem fixed the a5 could carry a wide array of Umrustbausatz kits.

Standard armament was the same as the a4.

[HoHun]

Hi Batz,

>I believe that the a4s just came from the factory with the "plumbing" but still needed to be fit with the mw50 "kit". Maybe HoHun or some one can clear that up.

Your summary is quite good, I can't add anything :-) The MW50 issue on the Fw 190A-4 still is mysterious.

>bmw801 D - erhöhte Notleistung = 2050ps / 2700 rpm (??ata)

I've just seen a diagram indicating that the increased emergency power as tested on the Fw 190A-5 boosted the power from 1660 HP to 1880 HP at sea level (high speed powers). The power setting was 2700 rpm, 1.65 ata.

The full effect was felt between below 0.4 km and between 2.8 and 5.5 km. From 0.4 km to 1.8 km and from 5.5 km to 6.5 km, the effect gradually dropped off to normal power.

With regard to the MG151/20, electical priming was a necessity for synchronized guns. Free-firing guns were usually percussion-primed, though the Luftwaffe thought it was a good idea not to mix both system on one plane as this would invite screw-ups :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Flyboy]

i wonder what is the performence difference between the A3 A4 and A5 if any? (speed climb turn and roll?)

another thing, all this MW50 talking made me wonder how the WEP work? (the "conventional" one) and did the 190s had it?

and about the 2 kinds of 20mm cannons, did they had the same type of shells, and did they had the same ROF and muzzle speed?

oh and last thing.
our AH 190A5 is MW50 ? i have a hunch it's not but its only a hunch

[crabofix]

The MG 151/20E Fired the same shell as the non "E" one.
I dont know, but I doubt that the non "E" 151/20 was used after the intreduction of the electric primed system. I think most of em got changed.

The major purpose of an Electric prime system is to ease synconisation and to limit field of fire in Turretinstallations (dont want your gunner to shoot your rudder/elevators full of holes!).

The US Army contucted some tests during the 60´s with Electric primed 9 mm submachineguns. I think they where trying to make the "m/45 carl-gustav" silenced, making it to shoot from a closed bolt.

The MG 151/20 is a scaled up MG 151 (Maschinengewerh 15 mm model 1,who fired a 15 mm round) firing a 20 mm shell.

But the thing is, this is not an MG, it is an MK (maschinenkanone), So the real name should have been MK 201. Calibers from 20 mm and upwards are MK´s.

[HoHun]

Hi Crabofix,

>The MG 151/20E Fired the same shell as the non "E" one.

But obviously not the same cartridge.

>I dont know, but I doubt that the non "E" 151/20 was used after the intreduction of the electric primed system.

The Me 109 continued use of the percussion-primed variant as it had no synchronization issues, neither in the 1-cannon nor in the 3-cannon variant.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Kweassa]

wonder what is the performence difference between the A3 A4 and A5 if any? (speed climb turn and roll?)

 I think it's safe to say the A3 and A4 are largely identical, and the A5, enhanced a bit. I'm at work right now so I don't have the performance figures, but Ill see what I can dig up.

another thing, all this MW50 talking made me wonder how the WEP work? (the "conventional" one) and did the 190s had it?

 I'm no expert in this stuff, but through a lot of recent discussions I've learned a few things. The "conventional WEP" systems were basically identical in all planes throughout the countries - it is simply higher manifold, higher RPM at overboosted levels, which will damage the engine if retained for too long continuously.

 Now, if I remember correctly, 190s before A5 used mostly that type of emergency boost, rated at about 1.3ata with 2400rpm(not sure about these figures - out of memory right now), which could be held for 3 minutes at schnellflugstellung settings.

 With the 190A5, field kits were provided, which were installed on the plane like internal fuel tanks, which injected C3 grade fuel, which acted in a way very simular to how MW50 worked -  as an anti-detonant, enabling the engine to retain higher boost pressure for a longer time. This boost, as I recall, was available for 10 minutes at level flight, schnellflugstellung. Then it would need a cool-down time, and then could be engaged again.

 The C3 injection system was widely used after the A5. I'm not sure about the MW50 on Fw190As - I hear controversial things, which one side claims the MW50s on A4s, A5s or A8s are a myth, while others claim such configuration really did exist, albeit in small numbers.

[crabofix]

Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Crabofix,
The Me 109 continued use of the percussion-primed variant as it had no synchronization issues, neither in the 1-cannon nor in the 3-cannon variant.

Regards,
Henning (HoHun)

Thank you HoHun, I forgot about the Bf 109.

Now, correct me if I am wrong, I might be on deep water here, but I pretty sure having read a interview with an Finnish WWII ace about the gondolas on the Bf 109 and why they hardly never used them.
First the extra weight on the wings did the plane less manuverble and the stress on the wings in a turnfight made the wings move, sometimes so much that the mechanic syncronations drivetrain was put out of function: as an result both gondolas where jammed, making them unusable.
So, there must have been some kind of issue with syncronization.

I might be wrong or I might have missunderstood the whole article.
Anyway, the method of discharging the guns in the gondolas, must have been by a solonid, wich is an electric device (magnetic). It seams very strange to use a percussion fired weapon controlled by an electric device, syncronized mechanicly, when it could have been discharged with the use of a Electric device, syncronized electricly and be primed electricly.
But they did´nt.

As I understand the whole thing the electric sync. thing was done the same way as you sync. a engines sparkplugs, ignition off/on, off/on etc,etc. This might have effected the firerate to much.
A mechanic sync. should have worked the same way as a engines cambshaft, safe on/off, on/off. A mechanic sync. needs a drivetrain and so does the electric sync., but only for the sync. not for the function. Cutting the Rpm on the engine must have effected the firerate, if the propeller was the sync. issue.
Why and if, there was a sync. in the gondolas is for me not 100% clear.

If anyone could correct me, I would be more then happy. As I am saying, I am a little unsure and might be on deep water.

[Batz]

Here’s a book about MW50 in the FW190 A4

"Focke Wulf 190 described Part 1" from Kookaburra Technical Publications.

But even so as Hohun stated

The MW50 issue on the Fw 190A-4 still is mysterious.

If anything mw50 was only installed on a few a4s. For all practical purposes we can say that the 190 a series did not have mw50 installed. The ah a5 DOES NOT USE MW50.

C3 fuel injection was tested on an a5 in 43 however I don’t think Erhöhte Notleistung was serialized until the a8. In FB the a5 has Erhöhte Notleistung. In ah the a5 has a 10 min generic "wep" setting.

The differences between the 2 cannon type:

Rheinmetall-Borsig MG FF 20mm cannon = outer

Muzzle Velocity: 1805 fps
Rate Of Fire: 520 Rounds per minute
Round Types: Explosive, Incendiary, Armor Piercing

Mauser MG151/20E 20mm cannon = inner

Muzzle Velocity: 2,590 fps
Rate Of Fire: 750 rnds/min
Round Types: Explosive/Incendiary, Armor Piercing, Armor Piercing/Electron Incendiary

mgff is based on the Swiss Oerlikon cannon (as was the Japanese Type 99 mk 1). As Crobofix said above the mg151/20mm is up scaled from the mg151/15mm (used on the 109f2)

I believe the mgff used a 60-rnd drum (at least in the ah a5; you will notice when selecting load out in ah you will see 2 x 20mm mgff 60 rpg.)

There’s a difference in weight between the 2 guns but I don’t have the numbers. The mgff was lighter and it wasn’t until they strengthened the wing in the a6 that the mgff was dropped for 4 x Mauser MG151/20E 20mm cannon.

In terms of ah the mgff are not very effective. In you have flown the a6m2 or 109e then you noticed that unless you are very close most planes soak up the mgff/type 99 Mk 1.

If you plan on flying the a5 in ah then I suggest leaving the mgff off.

Tony Williams is the one to contact in regards to the aircraft guns.

Heres a link to his site

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/

He sometimes posts over on this board but heres a link to the Military Guns and Ammunition forum.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/