SSO opinion on light damage - should it ground you ?you

[ViFF]

Hi folks, I am sorry I am openning a new thread on a topic that is already in discussion, but I feel this deserves a thread of its own.

In Daddog's thread about your opinion of squad ops, it was mentioned that within a very short span of time, most players get shot down, bailed and captured, and this causes people to lose interest, since its over for them within the first minutes of the frame. It was also mentioned that it would be a good idea to reward players who manage to bring their wounded bird back and land safely.

The damaged rtb folks come in with varying degrees of damage, from light damage like fuel leaks, glycol/oil leaks,  to extreme damage like  flight surface damages, or when landing without a big portion of your wing.

But what happens then ?
Why should they all be grounded ?
Can't we differentiate between a person who is truly shot down to one that manages to land safely ?
What stops us from immediately rewarding these pilots who made a substantial effort to return alive  and succeeded ?

I am not just speaking for myself, but for all of 101 Squadron when I say that we could completely revitalise the SSO events if the CM team would consider acting as a sort of "referee" to allow safely rtb'd folks with lightly damaged planes to replane - albeit based on the severity of the damage. I would say any kind of damage that does not bend the prop or require extensive sheet metal repairs can be considered light damage.

In my opinion it just does not make sense sending a good pilot to bed just because he got an oil leak, and on top of that, instead of going into suicide mode, choses to rtb safely.

In the "Kadesh" scenario we went as far as rescueng downed pilots, and allowing them freely to reup as if there was no limit of aircraft for each side !   As far as i've seen the response was very positive, people loved being given a second chance !.

Now this has nothing to do with bailing and being rescued, this is even more strict. Its about a pilot who lands at a freindly field with a damaged aircraft, and patches up some small holes.

CM's :  empower the players.

[BlauK]

Howabout simply allowing 2 lives by using a 2nd take-off window in the half-way of the frame? Or maybe a bit earlier... something like from T+45 to T+75.

This would also introduce intresting possibilities for plane setups. Most likely the 2nd plane should be of lesser quality.

[artik]

MultLifes.....

That will make SSO looks like CAPs. I personaly do not like multilife events - they are causing people to go to any suicide mission they know they can take other plane even if it is worster.

I flew in Okinawa and saw how it works. People wasn't take care of being shut down they knew that they can take another plane. I remember hole squadron comes on low alt on B5N2 whe 10-20 US planes CAP over it on alt of 5-10k. It was just suicide without any result - and we knew what is going to be.

When you know that you can die you will be carefull with your life and will not continue your fight if you plane get damaged - you will try to return and take another one.

So the best to have an option of real life - to know that you might not have 2nd trip.

[Flyboy]

i disagree blauk, this is a 1 life event
adding another life will take the "sting" out of the scenario

but i do belive a pilot who mannaged to nurse his wounded plane back to the safety of a friendly base should deserve a new plane.

we had this discussion before and if my memory serve's me right, one of the CMs said it IS possible to set a limited number of lifes (in our case 1 life) instead of just locking airfields allthough its complicated or something, i dont remember

CMs if it needs testing or something like that i will gladly help out in anything you guys need.

[Sikboy]

Maybe I'm the only one, but I don't mind when my Squad Op is over in the first hour.  

-Sik

[ghostdancer]

We currently don't have any tools in the admin setup that would allow us to do this. Basically we would have to do it manually of somehow checking and verifying that a person was not shot down, ditched, crashed, etc.

Basically to do this manually during an event of 60-70 people on sunday and close to 200 people on friday would be exceedingly difficult and not realistic to expect a CM to be able to pull off without quite a few people falling through the cracks.

It would be nice for those planes that land with damage (especially prop strikes or taking off a wing tip on the rearm pad) to be able to replane. But right now I am not sure how it could be done.

Will look into.

[lucull]

Before ramzey posts it, I do it:

This is a one life, one plane event. That's a simple rule. Sure, it has it's pros and cons, for me this is the thrill of SO.

note: a design should not bring a player into the position to be able to die in the first minutes.

[fofy]

Last SSO was a very frastrating one for me, I was high, I had the energy, I had the advantage BUT one H.O. performed by a suicidal Spit 5 sent me home with an oil leak. I even managed to evade 4 of them on the way back, using speed and Squad mates cover I landed safe. and... please read the first 5 words now..

As one of the guys with a lot of real life flying experiance, I strongly support giving the chance to reup if you landed a wounded a/c, considering the time you spend back and forth - Is like you had a chance to change or repair your a/c, this would give you a good reson to fly smart and save a/c and lives!

Nothing good in the fact you could loose your a/c first few minutes of frame. Even if you fly smart - you may be unlucky. as far as I remember - we are here to enjoy and fly, not to be grounded and leave.

I also remember we use to have "debriefs" in the old wb days, we only had them bcz there were pilots who stayed till the end... I often see very low numbers coming the end of frame... let's change that!

[artik]

Originally posted by ghostdancer
We currently don't have any tools in the admin setup that would allow us to do this. Basically we would have to do it manually of somehow checking and verifying that a person was not shot down, ditched, crashed, etc.

Basically to do this manually during an event of 60-70 people on sunday and close to 200 people on friday would be exceedingly difficult and not realistic to expect a CM to be able to pull off without quite a few people falling through the cracks.

It would be nice for those planes that land with damage (especially prop strikes or taking off a wing tip on the rearm pad) to be able to replane. But right now I am not sure how it could be done.

Will look into.

As I know - I might be wrong - setting up 1 life gives you an option to fly untill you - killed/crashed/captured - If I don't mistake if you landed/ditched/bailed you can take one more plane. So..... if we set it up with one (1) life setting we could be able to take another plane even if we bailed. This is one option.

Second. When you post the logs you can easyly see if someone killed or bailed and took another plane - it takes few minutes to check it. If it is too long - there are many players who see this logs and if he see someone that braked rule - he can show this and the squadron just will be removed from SSO. Fair enoght isn't it?

So technicaly it is not problem at all

originaly posted by lucull
Before ramzey posts it, I do it:  

This is a one life, one plane event. That's a simple rule. Sure, it has it's pros and cons, for me this is the thrill of SO.

So why if you crash after you roll - you take another plane? (don't tell me it never happens )

Do you refuel in SSO?

Yes you do how much time does it takes to refuel and rearm Mustang with full fuel and 6 rokets and 2x1000lb bombs? Belive me more then 30 seconds - even more the 30 min. But why do you rearm?

If you landed your plane even damaged there no technical reason you can't take another or it can not be repaired.

It is one life event and one plane event - who build this rules? CMs and Players, like the rule of 10k winds and more others that was changed all the time. So I do not see any reason for SSO comunity not to make this minor changes to ruels.

Looking forward!

[ViFF]

Yes I agree its a "one life event" , and I also agree its a "one plane"  event too. Simply because all I'm asking is that players have the ability to ask for a manual repair of light damage that would otherwise ground them, and send them to bed early.

Being given a second life mid frame regardless of what you did in the first half is not what I was thinking. Thats what you see in CAP events, and CAP is not SSO . In the SSO I was thinking of a possibility to immediately reward poeple who managed to land safely, albeit with light damage that currently grounds them. In the CAP event you get your second life even though you were shot down bailed and captured.

Ghostdancer,  I believe it  would be only a few players who manage to rtb a damaged airplane and ask for a repair. The majority of people who get shot down, will still be shot down, this has nothing to do with them.

I pretty much imagine it would have to be done manually, and would need a CM to do this. Both player and CM talking on private, CM using CMEYE to verify the player isn't abusing the option, and swiftly opening and closing flight at that players airfield for him to replane ala "fix damage".

The good points:

• Immediate reward for pilots who instead of going into suicide mode when damaged, make an effort to land their bird safely.
• Squads won't be anhilated by simple damages.
• Will create motivation for pilots to land safely.

The bad points:

• Must be done manually by the CM.
• Creates more work for the CM.
• May deny the CM the fun of flying in the event :eek:

In any case, I think it is quite doable, and worthwhile.

[Yood]

Re-Upping is for babies.
the whole point in having 1 life is the attempt to get as close as you can to reality.
Now, mind you the rules apply to both sides. the result? The better pilot/squad/pair survives.

However, as far as bringing a sick puppy to land and not being able to re-up, well, thats as far from reality as you can ever get. unles you recognize the fact that indeed you are playing a game and bound by its roules and regs.

To sum it all up in a few short words still within the bounds of the game:

Fly well, live long. fly bad (like me)  and you go to bed early.

A side note:
My wife just Loves the SE evenings, she knows i'll  be in bed quite early.




yood


:

[daddog]

The good points:

- Immediate reward for pilots who instead of going into suicide mode when damaged, make an effort to land their bird safely.

- Squads won't be anhilated by simple damages.

- Will create motivation for pilots to land safely.


The bad points:

- Must be done manually by the CM.

- Creates more work for the CM.

- May deny the CM the fun of flying in the event

I kinda like the idea after mulling it over for a while. No reason a pilot could not run and grab another AC (same AC) off the flight line. I am sure it was done in WWII.

When I was in charge of the TOD’s/Squad Operations Setup CM’s were not allowed to fly. This may have changed, I know some have been flying which I don’t agree with (some CM’s are going to hate me), but their primary responsibility is to provide the event, not to fly. Some were able to do both, but there is always the chance of missing a question, gate crasher, or setting that needs to be addressed. Doubly so if the Setup CM is in a furball and missing questions being posed to him in the text buffer or discos asking to reup.

I am not sure if a Setup CM could do this on a Friday night. I would add to the workload depending on the terrain and event. 200 is a lot of players. If only 5% wanted to re-up during the event that would be 10 players he would have to view their AC, open the field, close the field at various times. Hopefully none would abuse this and try to reup when it was open.

Players would also have to take the CM’s word as final. He would not allow a “debate” over this.

Bottom line is I am not a Setup CM, but an Admin CM. It would not add to my workload one iota, but it is something that should be considered IMHO.

This is a one life, one plane event. That's a simple rule. Sure, it has it's pros and cons, for me this is the thrill of SO.

note: a design should not bring a player into the position to be able to die in the first minutes.

Agree 100%.

[BlkKnit]

well, I dont fly when I am setting up, too much fun watching the action anyway.  I really think that there should be no "repairs".  As a long time structures guy, I can say that there is no damage that can be fixed in any quick manner.  Only damage that does not show on the damage read out would be something that could be a quick turnaround fix.

  As for grabbing another aircraft, sure, why not.  As long as the pilot is getting the same plane, load out and landed at his home field, then it would be workable.  And if it is not a limited number aircraft, such as are often used.
The problem comes from policing it.  Set up CM would need a list of all pilots (or squads anyway) and what field they launched from, and with what aircraft.

Now having said that I think its doable, that dont mean I think it should become a staple of Squad ops set ups.  Maybe once in while when the admin sees fit to include this in the write up, it could be done.  Really, there is good points to both sides of this argument, and I'd like to see it tried , just to see what happens.

In actuality, daddog, I do think it be added work for the admin CM, because he would need show how it would work for a particular frame and make it understandable for all players, and especially the set up CM.  I dont think this should ever be used as a "free re-up for landing" type set up.  It should only ever be used as part of the overall scheme of the even as laid out by the admin CM.

well thats my 2 cents....who's got my change?

[ramzey]

Originally posted by lucull
Before ramzey posts it, I do it:

This is a one life, one plane event. That's a simple rule. Sure, it has it's pros and cons, for me this is the thrill of SO.

note: a design should not bring a player into the position to be able to die in the first minutes.

[artik]

The point our 101 Red Squadron want to tell is that we want to have fun. Yes to have fun more time but not the way it is done in CT or other Mutilife events like Okinawa. It is worst to continue with the 1 life spirit events but... to add some more oprions to survive - the thing I've did in Kadesh - rescue is groundbraking but little bit hard to implement and forces CMs to make a lot of job.

The good way to implement it to use 1 life as arena setting - this will count your real life or to make CMs testing. It can add more fun to event (and it is main target of any game) but will leave the game 1 life only event.

It is many options to implement it.... But it worst to try!

Just like we are changing the rules all the time to find the best ones for SSO we can try it. And I'm shure it will work