Author Topic: Arab Fuehrer? (Read 1211 times)

crabofix · « **Reply #15 on:** November 03, 2003, 09:03:46 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by miko2d
Nazis had very specific doctrine and annexing lands in Africa was completely contrary to it. They may have been evil but they were not erratic.
miko

So, how where they planning getting the Rawrubber for their warmachine? The syntetic rubber wherent that good/enough and the amount delivered by Japan in subs, where not enough.

the Original warplan was to start at 1948.
Just curiouse.

miko2d · « **Reply #16 on:** November 03, 2003, 09:51:35 PM »

GRUNHERZ: What makes you think the Nazis wouldnt want to extend their power to the mid east and africa and beyond? For example after winning WW2 do you think they would just leave the suez canal to the british or under arab control?

Just the carefull study of their doctrines and writings checked against their actual actions. My copy of Mein Kampf is annotated, highlited and dog-eared.

Those are contradictory statements.... Just how much do the nazis hold to their plans and doctorines? By your own words you prove they were willing to deviate far enough from their plans to design and carry out the systematic extermination of 12 million people...

Nothing contradictory here. He had not planed to exterminate those people except under certain conditions towards which Hitler was not looking forward to - namely the mortal threat to the existence of the Reich. Read the part of Mein Kampf on the lessons he derived from post - WWI breakdown - specifically on the role the released inmates (communists, etc.) played.
The physical exterminaton did not start well into the war - when Germany's weaknesses became obvious.

Again, Hitler was evil but he was quite consistent. He was looking to win, not lose. If he won, the ews would probably not ended as close to Germany as Palestine - maybe in Madagascar...

crabofix: So, how where they planning getting the Rawrubber for their warmachine? The syntetic rubber wherent that good/enough and the amount delivered by Japan in subs, where not enough.

They did not expect the war to last forever. Hitler wanted to remove Germany from the world trade as much as possible and leave it to British. Yes, he openly called not to compete with British but let them have the world outside Germany and the trade as well. He believed brits had qualities/experience that germans lacked in dealing with the lower races.

The idea of colonising - especially in palces geographically separated from the mainland - was anathema to nazis. They did not want to mix their people with any lower races. On the territories they considered vital for them to have, they planned an elaborate segregated communities for germans so they do not come into contact with local people.

miko

Curval · « **Reply #17 on:** November 03, 2003, 10:06:30 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by miko2d
Curval: Given that Arabs are semities they sure made a "deal with the devil" there. Had the Nazis won they would have found out very quickly just how stupid they were to do so.
Off to the camps they would have marched.

Wow. You must have came out with this yourself as I've never heard anything so err... weird and illogical.

You think that just because some some ashkenazi jews - who may not even be semites, if some of their scientists are to be believed - arrogantly labeled their detractors "antisemites", the germans who had dislike for jews would somehow feel obliged to persecute arabs as well?

miko

Whatever Miko...I guess they didn't regard other "races", "creeds", "populus" as sub-human and liquidate at will. Even Germans of a particular "sexual orientation","mental health state" etc etc?

I'm sure they would have treated Arabs differently.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #18 on:** November 03, 2003, 11:12:43 PM »

So Nazi Germany expends massive amounts of men and material to defeat the british in North Africa and the Mid-East and then just cheerfully gives it back to the Brits after the war is over.

Miko I think your are one of those gys who is so proud to show he reads so much and how much he thinks he knows that you often miss the point entirely...

Tell me right now, the germans would give egypt back to the brits.. Cmon tell me.

Batz · « **Reply #19 on:** November 04, 2003, 12:02:12 AM »

The 13th Waffen-Gebirgs Division der SS Handschar:

Handschar was a Waffen-SS division of Bosnian Muslim volunteers.

Both the Ustashe and Chetniks attacked and massacred Bosnian Muslims. Some Bosnians appealed to Hitler to make Bosnia a German protectorate.

The Handschar division was raised in 1943. The unit included Imams, Fez headgear, special rations (no pork) and a revised ideological curriculum light on the "master race" talk but stressing the Nazi-Muslim friendship.

.

Naso · « **Reply #20 on:** November 04, 2003, 03:47:28 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So Nazi Germany expends massive amounts of men and material to defeat the british in North Africa and the Mid-East and then just cheerfully gives it back to the Brits after the war is over.

....(Personal attack omitted)....

Tell me right now, the germans would give egypt back to the brits.. Cmon tell me.

Basically Germans entered in North Africa on request of it's ally, Italy, after the initial "good" period, and they did'nt expend too much in it, about 2 divisions (if I remember correctly the 15th PzD and 21st PzGrenD, but I may have switched numbers), the bulk of men (and blood) on the axis side in the Africa campaign was on Italy, until the last defence of Tunisy.

But has been a silent war, where the "Star" (Rommel and his cronies) has become famous, and the "comprimaris" (thousands of Italian soldiers) are lost in the fogs of the past.

Anyway, I guess, IF, the axis would have arrived to Alexandria, Mr. Adolf would have leaved Italy to deal with the newly acquired colonies (in fact the North Africa war was an Italian campaign, Germany was there to help, like, viceversa, happened with the Italian troops sent to die in the Russian steppes).

bozon · « **Reply #21 on:** November 04, 2003, 03:48:02 AM »

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Originally posted by Nashwan
The Mufti's actions are not the most bizarre. Lehi, one of the terrorist organisations operating at the time in Palestine, and jointly headed by Yitzhak Shamir, opened contact with the Nazis in 1941, suggesting an alliance to defeat the British, (and I think offering Palestine as a destination to which Hitler could deport the Jews of Europe).

Lehi kept up attacks on British forces in the ME throughout the war, when most Jewish orginisations had sided with britain.

the lehi (Israel freedom fighters) were a terrorist organization by todays standards.
Luckily, the represented a very small portion of the jewish population in Palestine.

Their leader, Itzhak Shamir, became Israel's prime minister in the 80's - that didn't make much sense. But enough idiots voted for Sharon as well and that doesn't make sense either.

conclusion from all the above examples:
the middle east does not make sense.

Bozon

miko2d · « **Reply #22 on:** November 04, 2003, 08:06:52 AM »

Curval: Whatever Miko...I guess they didn't regard other "races", "creeds", "populus" as sub-human and liquidate at will.
I'm sure they would have treated Arabs differently.

They did. So what?
Their main concern was to keep the german population together and get rid of the "contamination" inside - not outside. Considering the worst case for arabs - unchanging doctrine and continuing population growth (both wildly unrealistic) - it would have been a while before the german nation grew to such extent that their territorial expansion brough them against arabs.

GRUNHERZ: So Nazi Germany expends massive amounts of men and material to defeat the british in North Africa and the Mid-East and then just cheerfully gives it back to the Brits after the war is over.

They would probably offered it to turks or egyprians or italians - but maybe to brits. That's what Hitler proposed before the war.
According to their doctrine, the colonial posessions were not a desirable asset but a source of mortal danger to the race.

Miko I think your are one of those gys who is so proud to show he reads so much and how much he thinks he knows that you often miss the point entirely...

How do you know I miss the point? I may be mistaken here and there but you have no phone line to god either to know how the history would have developed.

miko

Curval · « **Reply #23 on:** November 04, 2003, 08:30:07 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by miko2d
Curval: Whatever Miko...I guess they didn't regard other "races", "creeds", "populus" as sub-human and liquidate at will.
I'm sure they would have treated Arabs differently.

They did. So what?
Their main concern was to keep the german population together and get rid of the "contamination" inside - not outside. Considering the worst case for arabs - unchanging doctrine and continuing population growth (both wildly unrealistic) - it would have been a while before the german nation grew to such extent that their territorial expansion brough them against arabs.

Rrrrright....I guess by "inside" you mean Poland, Russia etc? Inside their conquored territory?

So it would take them a while..so what?

Fact is, sooner or later they would have wanted to clean up all of their territories of undesirables. Given the fact that Arabs are quite different from their concepts of an Ayrian race I think had the Nazis won, that Arabs would have eventually had a hard time of it under Nazi rule.

To think otherwise is naieve at best.

miko2d · « **Reply #24 on:** November 04, 2003, 09:08:15 AM »

Curval: Given the fact that Arabs are quite different from their concepts of an Ayrian race I think had the Nazis won, that Arabs would have eventually had a hard time of it under Nazi rule.

Right. The arabs of those times could have expected trouble from nazis in a few thousand years - and would have been wrong, because as we all know, the western societies stopped growing numerically, despite any government promotion programms.

As the matters stood, it was not nazis but british and french that gassed tens of thousands of them just a few years before and kept oppressing and tyranising and killing them and stealing their resources.

You forget that arabs had to contend with more urgent problems than a danger in a remote future.
Without british around, cooperating with nazis would not make much sense. But there were british and french around running the Middle East with an iron fist.

Which reminds me - it was stupid on the western countries part to help the international radical muslim fundamantalism against the dooomed soviet takeover of Afghanistan.
More stupid than arabs' cooperation with the nazis. Still, it seemed like a good idea at the time to some.

miko