Author Topic: Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing? (Read 6453 times)

Urchin · « **on:** November 10, 2003, 07:06:09 AM »

I understand that they are great for the corporations. They can move their factories out of the country, get foreigners to do the work Americans had been doing and pay them in pennies and nickels instead of dollars, and then sell the finished product back in the U.S. and make an even larger profit then they had been.

What I don't understand is why do Americans think this is a good thing? I guess in four or five centuries, after the corporations decide they can move back to America and pay the starving people there less than the greedy sons of *****es in Somalia, we might actually see some real job growth here.

I think it is time for this whole "globalization" kick to end. Yea, it is hell on wheels for greedy corporate *****uckers, but for your everyday average worker it leads to unemployment, underemployment, and the finished product doesn't cost any less than it would if it were made in the U.S.

Or maybe I'm just not seeing the whole picture, one of you wiser folks enlighten me please.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #1 on:** November 10, 2003, 07:33:24 AM »

Are you still going to school?

ravells · « **Reply #2 on:** November 10, 2003, 07:46:27 AM »

If people were to boycott goods made in sweatshops (noteably textiles and electronics), then undoubteldly the corporations who make those goods would do something about it - but that might make the goods more expensive.

Sadly, most people either don't know or don't care where and by whom the stuff they buy is made and what their working conditions are like - as long as the goods are cheap.

Potentially, global markets offer great benefits to everyone, but at present the markets are being managed by mulit-national corperations (of the top 100 economies on the planet, 51 are corporations) who have very few, if any, national loyalties at all.

These corporations are able to field powerful lobby groups which effectively make politicians their puppets.

Cheers

Ravs

ra · « **Reply #3 on:** November 10, 2003, 07:50:46 AM »

You can't build a wall around an economy. "Greedy" corporations wouldn't have to move overseas if "greedy" consumers didn't prefer cheaper products.

Free trade is a good thing in the long term because it allows more efficient use of resources. In the short term it can cause all sorts of grief as it displaces workers.

There are two reasons we are taking such a big hit now: 1) the cold war kept a billion people out of the global job market. Now that it is over, those people are available to work for western corporations at very low wages. 2) telecommunications improvements make it easier than ever to do business internationally, bringing probably another billion low-wage workers into the global job market.

Both of these changes were pretty sudden, so the economic impact is sudden, too.

Eventually the production and consumption of these 2 billion new workers will benefit us all, but until then we get to watch the value of our own labor pushed down by global market forces, and entire professions may become nearly extinct in the west.

ra

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #4 on:** November 10, 2003, 08:00:52 AM »

Its the EVIL corporations fault, because they are EVIL.

Animal · « **Reply #5 on:** November 10, 2003, 08:46:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Its the EVIL corporations fault, because they are EVIL.

Maybe not, but greedy would be a good term.

Tell me Grun, have you traveled to where these companies operate?

I was in the process of writing a long post on the subject, but I just scratched everything because it is frustrating.

I'll just leave it at this: once you witness first hand the complete lack of ethics some of these companies operate with your opinion will change.

This is coming from someone who was very surprised to see how the awesome corporation daddy worked for "employed" 11 year olds for 9 hours a day harvesting peanuts in a sunny field for maybe a quarter a day. The way this company operates is no different from a cartel, except for their product.

GO PLANTERS!!!

Animal · « **Reply #6 on:** November 10, 2003, 08:59:47 AM »

And by the way, I disagree with Urchin, I believe in a global economy, but there should be some international standards on how to treat workers, no matter what their stupid third world governments allow.

But that will come. The age of slave labour has to end sooner or later.

Mini D · « **Reply #7 on:** November 10, 2003, 09:05:58 AM »

The 4 loaves of bread per week we paid workers in Puerto Rico is much better than the 1 loaf of bread national average.

MiniD

Rude · « **Reply #8 on:** November 10, 2003, 09:14:09 AM »

International Minimum Wage

Thank You

Urchin · « **Reply #9 on:** November 10, 2003, 09:50:19 AM »

Animal, the "age of slave labor" will end when the corporations run out of people to exploit. That could take a while, given the rate of growth in some "third-world" countries.

And yea Grun... I'm still in school... the problem is my professors are all dirty communists like me. Nobody's changed my mind yet. I say we either go for a true "global economy" with international standards for wages, benefits, and other stuff, or go strictly national economies and tariff the **** out of the companies that choose to relocate "off-shore" to save money on labor costs.

Either way would work pretty well I think.

capt. apathy · « **Reply #10 on:** November 10, 2003, 09:52:02 AM »

most are duped into thinking it's a good deal. I only see it as good if you already have money or you get your money through investments.

for the american worker there is no good deal. most of hte countrys our jobs get sent off to don't have the cash to buy many products made here.

I see no benifit tho the american worker. not only is there a loss of work now but it will lead to the deteriation of working conditions for those who still find a job here.

you're already hearing the effects now with the push to do away with over-time pay for many americans. also many of the work place safety standards where scrapped when bush came to office(mainly ergonomic work regulations designed to reduce repetitive stress injuries).

and even people not in the workforce get screwed. many times the jobs aren't just sent to other countries because of lower wages. there is also weaker environmental protection regulations in most countries.

why would an employer set up on the texas side and have to deal with our polution regs when they could build their shop accross the river and dump the waste right in the river.

is see nothing wrong with protectionist tariffs (most countrys have some sort), not just as a way to promote suporting your own economy.

but if they truly want a fair global economy we should regulate working conditions and environmental standards not by where the factory is but where the products are sold.

if you treat your workers as slaves (or use slave labor), then you can't sell your products here. if you don't control your emissions then you cant sell here.

this not only would be good for the rest of the planet it would also allow us to restrict emissions to reasonable levels without having to worry about competing with countys who aren't playing by the same rules.

also if you build a product here, a car for instance, we collect quite a bit of tax by the time that car is sold. taxes on the companys proffit, taxes on the wages of the men building that car, wages and proffits from vendors who supply parts and equipment. all the way down to taxes on the wages of the waitress who serves lunch to the guy building the car.

if you truly leveled the playing feild an import tax equal to the taxes that would have been generated by building that car here would be levied on all imports.

ra · « **Reply #11 on:** November 10, 2003, 10:17:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Urchin
Animal, the "age of slave labor" will end when the corporations run out of people to exploit. That could take a while, given the rate of growth in some "third-world" countries.

And yea Grun... I'm still in school... the problem is my professors are all dirty communists like me. Nobody's changed my mind yet. I say we either go for a true "global economy" with international standards for wages, benefits, and other stuff, or go strictly national economies and tariff the **** out of the companies that choose to relocate "off-shore" to save money on labor costs.

Either way would work pretty well I think.

A corporation is merely a form of organisation, any greed or corruption they exhibit goes with any human organisation. Your communist professors have done a good job of teaching you that corporations are the greediest forms of human organisation, as though other organisations have a higher form of humainity. Nobody complains when corrupt, inefficient governments ruin a country's economy and cause it's people to live in poverty.

The way a corporation does business in a small country with a corrupt, unstable government will be different from the way it does business in Switzerland. Most of Latin America is corrupt, with resources controlled by a few rich families, or by government. Either way, the poor are screwed. Some corporations may be guilty of preserving the status quo for their own interests, but for the most part those countries have always been messed up, even after revolutions which were supposed to improve the conditions of the poor.

Poor countries which corporations have no interest in, like most of Africa, are more messed up than those countries which corporations do business in.

As far as international trade goes, corporations often have little direct involvement with the conditions unskilled workers face. If a large western corporation decides to import bolts from China to save costs, it will be Chinese companies and governments who decide how to pay and treat the workers. The western corporation just offloads the bolts from the dock without knowing or caring how the conditions are at the Chinese factory. If the bolts are being made by 8 year old kids working 14 hour days is it the corporation's fault or the communist government's fault? Ask your professor.

ra

capt. apathy · « **Reply #12 on:** November 10, 2003, 10:40:41 AM »

Quote

As far as international trade goes, corporations often have little direct involvement with the conditions unskilled workers face. If a large western corporation decides to import bolts from China to save costs, it will be Chinese companies and governments who decide how to pay and treat the workers. The western corporation just offloads the bolts from the dock without knowing or caring how the conditions are at the Chinese factory. If the bolts are being made by 8 year old kids working 14 hour days is it the corporation's fault or the communist government's fault?

no it's our fault for not protecting our bolt manufacturers( or those in other countries who also use humane work practices)

corperations are not inherantly evil but they have no soul. there is no person at the top who says "the buck stops here. I'm responsable for what my company does and the decissions it makes"

in the corperate world the owners of the company (share holders), say "I just own a small peice, I don't run this company or have any real say in it's operation" and the ceo says "I can't let my personal views interfere, I have a duty to my share holders to provide them with a maximum return. as long as what I'm doing isn't illeagal I have no right to let my personal morals get in the way of them getting a good return on their investment).

since nobody will take responsability we need to regulate the situation, either by out-right bans on imports from countrys that don't have some sort of reasonable protection for workers and the environment. the other option would be tariffs equal to or exceding the cost of implementing these regulations, making it more proffitable to treat their people and the planet well.

we don't have a right to tell other countrys what laws to pass but we do have a right to say they can't do bussiness here if they won't at least meet our minimum standards.

Dnil · « **Reply #13 on:** November 10, 2003, 10:49:52 AM »

I worked for the biggest company in the world at one point, i think wal mart replaced them recently.

The stuff I saw that went on in meetings at the company made me ill. I thought crap like that was made up and was only in the movies.

Covering up OSHA incidents to lower your numbers and appear safe. Busting bureau of land management regulations. Knowing your busting lease lines and fudging the reporting. Asking doctors to not prescribe medicine to injured workers so it wouldnt have to be reported to OSHA. These werent 1 time incidents, pretty much a common occurance.

Yes the job paid a ton but I hated selling my soul to make it.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #14 on:** November 10, 2003, 11:35:54 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Urchin
Animal, the "age of slave labor" will end when the corporations run out of people to exploit. That could take a while, given the rate of growth in some "third-world" countries.

And yea Grun... I'm still in school... the problem is my professors are all dirty communists like me. Nobody's changed my mind yet. I say we either go for a true "global economy" with international standards for wages, benefits, and other stuff, or go strictly national economies and tariff the **** out of the companies that choose to relocate "off-shore" to save money on labor costs.

Either way would work pretty well I think.

No it wouldnt work well, for example tarrifs would simply destroy the US economy as other nations would simply deploy counter tarrifs to protect their workers. In fact protectionist tarrifs and retalitory prptectionist tarrifs were enourmously responsible for the Great Depression of the 1930s getting as bad as it did - and the motive was the same - to protect domestic jobs.

And it's really a bad idea to learn your economics from english proffesors...