Author Topic: Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?  (Read 7363 times)

Offline Airhead

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3369
      • http://www.ouchytheclown.com
Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #75 on: November 10, 2003, 10:21:48 PM »
Nike uses the skins from third trimester aborted Indonesian fetuses for the leather uppers of its more premium shoes. In fact Nike pays top dollar for third trimester fetus skins, and a fetus that can cover a size 17 Shaquille O'Neill shoe will sell at a premium. I don't see anything wrong with this- after all, It's the only way the Indonesians will ever make the NBA.

Offline capt. apathy

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4240
      • http://www.moviewavs.com/cgi-bin/moviewavs.cgi?Bandits=danger.wav
Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #76 on: November 11, 2003, 12:59:11 AM »
warning, this somehow turned into an endless rant with a serious wall of text.

Quote
I am curious. How exactly is Nike so evil? Between the part where they build a factory in Indonesia and pay their workers more than any other employer in the vicinity, and the part where the shoes reach the local Footlocker store some great evil is apparently being perpetrated and I am missing it completely.



  the evil is that while the conditions and wages may be decent for that area they are no where near what we consider adequate,  or require of local manufacturers who compete with these products in our stores.  nobody in Nike corporate would tolerate their children spending their lives at such a career under those conditions and for those wages.  but it's hypothetical people on the other side of the world that actually enjoy those conditions.  

those Americans that find themselves unemployed purely through their own fault,  they need to accept workplace accidents as 'part of life'  I mean what is the value of a finger, a hand, an eye, maybe a foot, when weighed against increased production and higher profit,, and the resulting value increase of a few cents a share for the share-holders.  they should work for a lower, more competitive wage, they did this to themselves, priced themselves right out of a job,  I mean as it was before we had a little healthy competition,  they where probably making close to a 100th of a mid-level executives wage.  what kind of worker is so arrogant as to presume to be worth 100th of the value of a yes-man, corporate potato, whose made the improvement of having his morals removed.

To expect others to live in such conditions, while profiting from their labor and doing little or nothing to make things better for those who's labor provides for their income,  and using the products produced under these conditions, in an unfair trade competition with companies that are forced to follow rules and incur expenses that these less than ethical companies aren’t required to conform to.

also these foreign factories usually are not bound by our emission laws(some countries have equal or stronger emission laws but these aren’t the ones that are competing unfairly by not having to concern themselves with things like fair wages, working conditions, health of your workforce, or environmental damage.  at it would only be fare if those countries with these stronger standards used the same attitude when dealing with products produced  here)

  because of the location of the mess and it's distance from those with who make such decisions, they can dump whatever they want, and produce their products under conditions that our society has decided (through our laws) is unacceptable. simply by contracting out production to countries they can let the local sleaze, handle these and other less than pleasant details.  by actually hiring him instead of the workers directly you have good degree of deniability, and all it costs you is provide the funding and resources necessary to give him the opportunity to exploit his land and countrymen for some mutual profit.  

it's a lie when they call this lack of regulation free or fair trade.  it's not fair and it's damn sure not free.  we pay the cost daily in our schools, prisons, and courts. how can we ever expect to do away with extreme poverty, and other serious social and environmental.  when we reward companies (through lower taxes per unit and virtually anything goes employment practices) for  closing down factories that have contributed to our economy and encourage and reward them to take the jobs over seas, where they won't be hampered by basic decency and consequences to treating people like an asset.

  because of our lack of control over this situation we have set up a system that rewards Americans for exporting jobs away from their home.  we complain about our economy when we let the corporations export jobs, money, and the taxes and support jobs they generate.  

I don't advocate purely protectionist tariffs to slam all imports,  but I do think adding a tariff equal to (or exceeding if necessary for punitive motivation, to companies who refuse to get the point), the money saved by manufacturing and employee management practices that would not be tolerated in the countries where the goods are sold or owned, including any projected cost of cleanup from environmental negligence  (to be fair it would be reasonable to expect like tariffs imposed on imports from the US to countries that have higher standards for pollution, wages and working conditions)

it seems very inefficient to me to penalize people for manufacturing products at or near the areas where they are used.  it would be a better use of resources if the competition was made fairer and the products could be manufactured competitively near the areas where people buy them.

to be fair these low wage, low value of human life areas can still sell their products at the cheaper rate since they are being sold in an area that finds these practices tolerable.  I wonder how many pairs of air-Jordans (or whatever the 'too-damn-expensive-shoe-of-the-day' is) they would be able to sell to their employees making $.50 a day.  How much do they pay a day for a worker? How many shoes does a worker make a day?  And how much are these shoes sold for?  Does the math really work out to prove that a paying a decent wage for the people who manufacture the product would have enough impact to make any difference in their ability to compete?

it seams fairly clear to me that if in the process of manufacturing your products can't generate enough wages in your employees to provide a significant portion of your customer base,  then you are a pimple on the prettythang of the world economy.

the only Americans this type of "free-trade"(and I use the term very loosely) is the very wealthy.  they still will get the dividends and profits form the exploitative companies, they will get more merchandise for their buck since they can buy products without taking any responsibility (through the cost being reflected in the price) for the pollution and the suffering of people working away their lives in dangerous jobs for slave wages.  they also don't have to face the other costs like pollution or human rights violation because all that (along with our jobs) is done "over their" in a dirty, filthy sweatshop where "those kind of people" like living like that.

plus they get the added power and feeling of superiority because they can point to the poor these policies generate at home and shake their head at how the bums won't get a job, they can feel great about their wealth and life of excess while the unemployed here prove that the poor just won't work, or maybe show a bit of initiative like those hard working people over seas who our CEO tells us are happy to work for a few dollars a week and really love their life and the opportunity we provide them to produce products for our consumption at slave wages and often deadly and usually abusive conditions.

maybe if the rich are really lucky, poor can be deported to that 3rd world country so we can have the opertunity to compete directly for that spare-change wage.

then it would be just the rich here.  without any lower class people to start complaining and make a scene.  well except for the maid, we'll need her, and gardener, burger flipper and the sales girl at Nordstrom.  (and probably a few others who's contribution I have and will continue to take for granted until I have to start doing fo rmyself) and maybe a couple extras just so those with a job don't get to comfortable and start demanding to be treated like people.  you have to have a few desperate ones left, to serve as an example to the others of what could be if they make trouble. and to entertain us with them being so desperate that they will do anything for a buck.  it would be paradise the
true americans, the wealthy, the only ones that matter could live like kings.  they would have plenty of desparately poor people who would do anything no matter how dangerouse or degrading fo some spare change to get by.

that would be perfect,  they could set aside our country for the wealthy and their servants while sending all the jobs- that would be distasteful to have to actually witness the conditions of -to the far ends of the earth where the people who matter wouldn't have to be confronted with the cost others who have few options are paying for their lifestyle..
« Last Edit: November 11, 2003, 01:01:57 AM by capt. apathy »

Offline capt. apathy

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4240
      • http://www.moviewavs.com/cgi-bin/moviewavs.cgi?Bandits=danger.wav
Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #77 on: November 11, 2003, 01:00:16 AM »
we could eventually pass regulations to clean it up around here ship out these people that won't 'do their part'.  why, we could even solve the homeless problem, just make it illegal to be homeless, after that you probably wouldn't hear near as many people complaining about lack of affordable housing if they were locked up for not having a residnece like all good citizens.

 we'd need to just keep a couple around as an example 'for the help', plus it's an easy shot at feeling superior.  nothing makes you feel powerful like seeing a man with nothing and no hope.   really, what a sad waist of life, it's obviously his fault he lives like this, why none of my friends at the country club have any problem getting by, with a bit of hard work building on the money their parents set aside to 'help out'.  seeing how much more you've made of your life than this bum always makes you feel a bit superior.

 he probably wouldn't even be in this mess if he's worked hard and studied when he was at Harvard, I did all my work and I'm doing ok, I know what hard work is, my parents made me do a budget and even take a part time job with one of their friend to provide my own beer money, I know suffering and I'm a stronger person for it.

it would be less disturbing, and simpler for all,  and allow those who've 'won the ecconomy game' to enjoy their spoils in peace, if we could take these 'dirty' manufacturing jobs and the workers who we don't feel are desrving of reasonable compensation for their work,  and shipped the whole process far enough away as to out of sight and mind, and not risk the reality of it tugging at any shred conscience that our new, properly insulated, ruling class might have left.

IMO, much of the deterioration of our country is not being caused by the 'lower class' or 'bums',  I think a much larger share of the responsibility has been with it being considered socially acceptable to over look illegal, unethical, or just plain crooked business practices.   when a persons worth is judged by the weight of their wallet and not their character you are setting yourself up for living in a human cesspool.

if we (as a society) had any balls at all we would refuse to do business ever again with likes of those who profited from Enron or similar cases of thievery in the form of "creative accounting".

we wouldn't just waiting for a chance to suck up to the point of worship unethical people(or more acurately, their money) who make their proffit and thrive without regard for their impact on the society that provided them with the oportunities or the people who pay the price for their lack of corprate ethics.

we would have refused to businesses with the 'corporate raiders' of the 80's.
when they bought companies that where major employers, providing a wage that would provide for the families needs while leaving at least one parent with time to raise the kids, and a real good shot at coming home with good enough health that maybe you could spend some time getting to know your kids, good working conditions, an affordable health-plan, and  chance of providing your kids with a better shot than you had.  these types of employers would be bought up and parted out, close up shop, lay off the whole community, and sell the assets for more than you paid for the whole set-up.
 
in business we toss around words like money, cost, debt, savings and profit as if these words could be used to take the measure the anything around us, that had any true value .  we think anything that doesn't have a value that is expressible in a dollar figure as unimportant, and don't let it figure in when making 'bussiness decisions'.

the inconvenient things like - ethics, honesty, character, an honest desire to be a positive influence in the lives of those who you come into contact with, your responsibility to give a damn about your fellow man and how your life-style or business-style effects your community and fellow man,  and considering these things when making decisions giving them as much or more consideration than issues with dollar signs in front of them.

anyway, looking up I see that I've been on quite a marathon of a rant and probably should wrap it up.

but I would just like to point out again that to have several companies (and with them the countries, communities, and people who work with or for them), compete in the same marketplace for the same customers,  while regulating one (with all of the accompanying increased production cost, that goes along with responsibility) on issues of, pollution, tax paid to the country where business is being done, rate of pay, working conditions, reasonable work hours and a set cost for violating these rules.  and allow the other compete free of any sort of regulation, or any incentive or regulation to persuade  the unregulated counties or companies to take responsibility for the costs others pay for their production practices.  is not fair trade,  it's giving a huge advantage to companies with no ethics or conscience, while penalizing those who do business ethically.

Offline Thrawn

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6972
Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #78 on: November 11, 2003, 01:56:24 AM »
miko's model is great in theory.  Unfortunately it doesn't alwas happen in practice.  What sometimes happens is that a company moves into a third world nation.  They set up an unsafe working environment.  People move from rural areas to work in the factory based on unreasonable expections do to the lies that are told to them about earning potential.  There is a fire do to unsafe conditions and a bunch of kids die at the factory.  Citizens get pissed off and government legislates occupational safety laws.  Company moves to the next country without occupational saftey laws ect.  Displaced labour in urban areas die of stravation.

Rinse, repeat.

Offline ravells

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1982
Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #79 on: November 11, 2003, 06:23:43 AM »
I am extraordinarily surprised that nobody (particularly Urchin and his english professors :) ) has mentioned 'The Grapes of Wrath' by John Steinbeck. What we have today a global version of what went on then in Oklahoma and California.

Trying to analyse the problem by using economics models alone is not sufficient, since economic models do not tell the whole story.

The free market protagonists repeatedly make the point that sweatshops are better than nothing at all in that the people who work in them earn something. The alternative to sweatshops is not necessarily starvation. By the use of properly controlled and well managed overseas aid (incredibly the biggest oveseas aid contributer amongst western countries as a factor of GNP is Norway - the US comes close to the bottom of the list) we can help the poorer nations on this planet to become a little more self sufficient. In the long term this would assist us financially as one would hope those countries would become more politically and economically stable. It's a tough act to pull off. Corruption in poor states is usually endemic and getting the money to the people who need it the most is very, very difficult. Nevertheless it ought to be a challenge worth accepting.

Another point made was we have the choice about whether to buy goods produced under questionable circumstances. Nobody forces a 'gun to the head' purchase. Of course we have a choice, but consider how many American schools today (I don't live there so you guys will know better than me) are accepting 'donations' from large corporations (Coke and Nike, amongst others) in return for right to advertise in schools. One incident that springs to mind was a Nike requirement at one school, that in return for donated funds, students were to study the construction of Nike shoes. The teachers and students refused. No, they don't put a gun to your head, they just aim to brainwash people - the younger the better.

Witness America's problem with Junk food and its connection with obesity. I believe the US is only now begining to wake up to this. High fat content sells burgers, McDonalds doesn't give a rat's stuff about long term health problems that over indulgence in their products causes. In fact, they actively encourage it.

Ra was right, corporations are creatures of our invention, but like Frakenstein's monster we have let them get out of control and we have only ourselves to blame.

Ravs

Offline ravells

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1982
Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #80 on: November 11, 2003, 06:45:36 AM »
Just one final point.

Much has been said about outsourcing industries from the US to countries which do not have gas emission controls which are as stringent as those in the US.

Well, with 4% of the worlds population, the US manages to produce 25% of greehouse gas emissions.

Further, the Bush administration has consistently refused to sign the Kyoto Protocolhttp://www.corpwatch.org/news/PND.jsp?articleid=143

which aims to produce international agreement on the control greenhouse gas emissions.

I'm sure this has absolutely nothing to do with the Bush administrations rather cosy relationship with the oil industry.

Ravs

Offline capt. apathy

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4240
      • http://www.moviewavs.com/cgi-bin/moviewavs.cgi?Bandits=danger.wav
Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #81 on: November 11, 2003, 07:06:27 AM »
Quote
Well, with 4% of the worlds population, the US manages to produce 25% of greehouse gas emissions.


very true but when discusing more apropriet standards it always comes back to "american jobs shipped overseas", and how if you want any job at all you'll have to learn to except low-wages, unsafe conditions, and keep your mouth shut when you see polution violations.

if there where teriffs on products from companies with lower standards.  this would even things out a bit (at least on what is sold here, wich is really all we have any right to try and control)  we could then further restrict polution down to much safer levels and wouldn't have to worry about losing our competitive edge because as our restrictions increase (increasing production costs companies who kept there production local) the tariffs would also reflect the distance between the standards of the manufacturing country and the standards we impose on ourselves.

Offline Manedew

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1080
Re: Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #82 on: November 11, 2003, 07:18:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
I understand that they are great for the corporations.  They can move their factories out of the country, get foreigners to do the work Americans had been doing and pay them in pennies and nickels instead of dollars, and then sell the finished product back in the U.S. and make an even larger profit then they had been.  

What I don't understand is why do Americans think this is a good thing?  I guess in four or five centuries, after the corporations decide they can move back to America and pay the starving people there less than the greedy sons of *****es in Somalia, we might actually see some real job growth here.

I think it is time for this whole "globalization" kick to end.  Yea, it is hell on wheels for greedy corporate *****uckers, but for your everyday average worker it leads to unemployment, underemployment, and the finished product doesn't cost any less than it would if it were made in the U.S.




Couldn't be more right Urchin ... unfortunately companies like FOX News And CNN are part of these corperations; and they try to make many Americans see thier point of view witch often includes Globalization...... The poor brain dead 'masses'  but what else can you say when they eat up that coprate BS .... half the country seems hook line and sinker on that BS

Anyway .. maybe the rest of the world has had enough too ... At Cancun' all the 'small' countries finally stood up to the US, Europe, Japan... ya know  .. the gang

They said enf with your "free trade BS"    lets see what happens at the next meeting.... bet they don't hold it in the US and Canada tho.... because pleanty of us don't listen to Corprate Propoganda... Remember Seattle and Montreal.... big mess.

Offline ravells

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1982
Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #83 on: November 11, 2003, 08:35:34 AM »
Sorry Capt. apathy, I didn't explain my thoughts in full.

The Kyoto protocol only becomes binding if 55 percent of the nations emitting 55 percent of greenhouse gasses sign up to the protocol.  If the US, as the largest greenhouse gas emitter, was to sign the protocol, then it would be a large step towards the target triggering the operation of the protocol to come into effect for all signatories.

Once the protocol has become law and is ratified in member states, those states will be expected to patrol their own emissions and if they don't, other countries can cry 'foul' and get the offending states to put their houses in order.

This ought to provide less of an incentive for companies to relocate overseas in the long run as the places they might want to relocate to will (or ought to) have pollution controls in place.

Indeed, one of the reasons the Bush administration is giving for not signing the protocol is that developing countries are to be exempted from the first round of emission controls which he perceives as unfair.  The Bush administration also believe that the studies on global warming which are being used are not reliable. Goodness knows, I hope the Bush administration is right, because if it is not, then we are all ****ed and job exports will be the least of our problems.

The developing nations say that they need the exemption because they do not yet have the technological know- how to control their emissions within tolerable limits and cannot presently afford to buy this know-how from the west.

So....stalemate whilst the planet goes down the tubes.

Ravs

Offline miko2d

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3177
Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #84 on: November 11, 2003, 09:24:02 AM »
Urchin: ]Miko, thank you for responding.  One question however- ...
 The U.S. imports far far more goods than it exports, I don't know the numbers but I know it is true. I was also under the impression that for an economy to keep growing, it had to export more than it imported, is that untrue?


 Sure. The scenario I've described is working. The wage pressure in US is lower because the price of consumer goods is lower - in part due to imports.

 As for the trade balance it is a different matter. Currently, US imports $500 billion more goods than it exports. In a free market conditions such a situation would quickly end and the trade would become balanced due to change in currencies exchange ratio and domestic purchasing power. A dollar's rate relative to foreign curreny would fall while dollar's domestic purchasing power would raise - thus making imports more expensive to americans and american products cheaper for foreigners, thus establishing the balance.
 Unfortunately, there is no free market in US and forreign monetary policy. The dollar exchange rate does not fall abroad because the foreign governments buy the dollar and take it out of circulation as "foreign currency reserves". In fact, they act in collusion with their exporters at the expeense of their other citizens who are taxed to buy out those dollars. Basically, the foreign governments pay subcidy to US consumers to keep their special interest groups in business.
 In US the purchasing power of the dollar does not raise because Federal Reseerve prints the dollars.

 Such situation of US receiving free goods form abroad would be very beneficial - just like US receiving free rain, sunlight, etc. is beneficial - but it may end any time and in that case our economy will be seriously disbalanced.

I was also under the impression that for an economy to keep growing, it had to export more than it imported, is that untrue?

 That is absolutely untrue. A person/family/country needs to buy outside the stuff that cannot be produced domestically as cheap or at all. Someone else does something better or cheaper that we can and instead of trying to do it ourselves (growing oranges in Canada), it is cheaper for us to trade for it. That is what division of labor is all about.
 So the country benefits not from exports but from imports! The exports are only needed to pay for the necessary imports.
 Any excess export is just resources wasted to benefit foreign consumption instead of being invested locally.

 Example: Japanese government taxes their population $100 billion dollars worth a year to buy dollars from japanese exporters. Basically, they are making japanese taxpayer buy $100 billion worth of goods and give them to US consumers for free.
 If theys top doing that, they will save peopel $100 dollars in taxes. The export workers will look for employment domestically, the nominal wages would drop but the production would increase and the prices would drop more, so the real wages would raise. The same number of workers would produce more stuff for internal consumption and investement. US would loose $100 billio a year worth of stuff while Japan gains it.

 Also, I was under the impression that "real wages" had actually fallen since the 1970's.

 Many economists claim that - but I am not about to expound on this topic. I am getting enough flack on this board as it is.


DmdNexus: I guess the US and it's word doesn't mean watermelon to Republicans.

 The biggest losers of steel and lumber tariffs are american consumers and workers. With cheaper steel and lumber, the cost of products made of them would fall, which would increase demand, which would in turn increase production - so mor people would be hired making houses, cars, etc. Being cheaper, our products would sell better abroad - helping us pay for that imported steel and lumber.


Animal: The way you picture it I have absolutely no trouble with, like I stated above, I am pro global economy, if it is done the way you have described.
But that is not the case with many companies.
Take Nike, for example. They are already a hugely profitable company...


 Good. Americans get return on their savings while the poor foreigners get the capital they desperately need. We would be better off without those profits than they would be without that capital. We all benefit.[/b]

You see, Nike employees are not allowed to...

 As I've said - they choose to work in those conditions voluntarily because their alternative options are worse. They can quit any time and there would be others willing to take their place.
 Nike did not cause scqalor in their country. All it did is offer them a better opportunity - not great but better than what they had and a step to further development.

They have been doing this for years. Their prices are still absurdly high - their product costs the same now as it did ten years ago.

 That is because instead of promoting the compatition the activists deter it. The companies who got hold of the market - especially huge companies with deep pockets to withstand PR and legal assault stay in business while small companies who could give them competition are scared to enter that business.
 A single "sweatshop" campaign can ruin a small company while not hurting Nike much. I would not be surprised to find out that Nike is behind those sweatshop campaigns just to discourage a competition.

 Nike does not prevent anyone from giving help to poor workers. Nike just offers them jobs and if those workers lived in betetr conditions, Nike would have to pay them more to attract them.

Do you consider this ethical? moral?

 Do you consider it moral to prevent a company from offering a job to desperate people and giving them nothing in return? You heart may be bleeding watching them work 14 hours a day (in conditions much better than most people live in that coutry). But your heart is not worried if they die of starvation and desease outside your view.  When Nike sweatshop closes under pressure or competitor does not open, those people do not go to better jobs. Those children starve, go into crime or prostitution. Is that moral?
 Offer those people a better choice than Nike does. You do not have to stop Nike in order to benefit them.
  Ultimately, Nike improves their conditions by offering employment - not as much as activists would want them to but more than the activists do.

GRUNHERZ: CEO pay is out of control, especially when such high pay is not met with peformannce.

 No, its not. It's a private matter for the owners of that company. If they are willing to share more of their profits with a manager, why do we care? If you hold shares, youc an vote them to lower the CEO's salary and raise your dividend. Why should the workers care who gets that money anyway - the owner or the manager?


Thrawn: People move from rural areas to work in the factory based on unreasonable expections do to the lies that are told to them about earning potential.

 Those people may live in undeveloped countries but they are not stupid. They know what they are getting from people who already working and if they do not like the job after a week or two, they can quit.

 miko

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #85 on: November 11, 2003, 09:51:10 AM »
hooligan is correct... what most of you are missing is that some jobs are entry level jobs..  Wall mart is a great job for two people who just got married and have no education or are just starting out...  there are many jobs in Wall mart that are above the 8 bucks an hour range or... after getting some experiance... the young couple can move on.  

As for the evil sweatshops in other countries...  I don't get it... you would rather the company pulled out and let the people starve?   Like hooligan.. I buy new balance.. they are made in the U.S. (the ones I bought)  they are not any or not much more than nikes but they are comfortable and consistent and last forever... the Nike is maybe comfortable and maybe not...  get 10 pairs and one might be as comfortable as any pair of new balance you pick up... and that's not even the point... I bet the low skilled workers in those countries are producing plenty of reject shoes for nike...

My guess is that nike thought they were gonna cut a fat profit and are finding out that they are losing as much as they are gaining but they have a huge investment overseas so can't pull out.

As for CEO's... who cares?  well... maybe it would be better to ask why the investors would pay such wages?   Some board somewhere must make him accountable... either they are not doing their job or he is making enough money for the company to justifyu his wage.

Why does some sissy worthless actor get paid thousands, hundreds of thousands, of times more than the cameraman?  

Certainly giving everyone the exact same wages and benifiets is not the answer...  as has been shown...   certainly having the government regulate wages is not the answer... what government agency do you see that is working well?

perhaps we should follow NZ's lead and then we could all live with the high standard of living that they enjoy and the low prices they have on all goods and the low taxes they have.   We could all be driving 502 big blocks for pennies with their 50 cents a gallon or so gasoline and ready supply of cheap muscle cars... we could be shooting hundred dollar 1911 colts with 2 dollar a box ammo.   With such and enlightened government we could shoot thompsons and BAR's..... Land of the rich and the free.  
lazs

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #86 on: November 11, 2003, 09:53:48 AM »
Why does some super model get paid millions of times more to wear the sweatshop clothes than the worker gets to produce it?   Perhaps we should boycott supermodels?


We just got a Wall mart in town... the little "mom and pop" hardware store in town has been being as rude as they can whiole charging the highest possible prices for 20 years that I know of..   they treat their workers like **** and have used their profits to buy up half the town.    They started to be nice to customers when wall mart broke ground.
lazs
« Last Edit: November 11, 2003, 09:56:30 AM by lazs2 »

Offline DmdNexus

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 901
Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #87 on: November 11, 2003, 10:24:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
What do you think I stand for, what do you think my motives are?


Ah... Your diabolical scheme does not escape us GRunhez...

Our informants have observed your activities in the grocery store dairy section. We've seen you purposely take out a whole egg, tap it on the side of the shelf to make a hairline fracture and then place it back into the carton  - with the CRACK side down!

Why Grunhezt... why do you do this? Why?

Offline ravells

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1982
Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #88 on: November 11, 2003, 10:30:40 AM »
This is an excerpt taken from a study by MIT on some of the points made above. You can find the whole study here:

http://web.mit.edu/utr/www/consensus.doc

•   “Any job is better than no job. These people would rather work in a sweatshop than starve.”

Slavery might also be better than starvation, yet nobody advocates a return to slavery. Just because a bad job may be better than starvation doesn’t justify labor abuses such as the beating and raping of workers or the threatening of worker’s families—all abuses that have been regularly documented by independent researchers visiting sweatshop factories (Breslow, 1995; Foek, 1997). While accepting that a bad job might be better than nothing, we should continue to fight the abuse of human lives, and even a basic study of history reveals that most human progress as a society has occurred through such struggles for progress, not through maintenance of the status quo. If we justify abuse under the premise that is better than the worst alternative, we create a slippery slope leading down to the complete devaluation of human life. As New York Times columnist Bob Herbert, a vocal critic of sweatshop abuse, writes, “What’s next, employees who’ll work for a bowl of gruel?” (Herbert, 1996).

•   “Most companies that use sweatshops are actually just contracting through local producers, so they don’t have a say in the conditions of factories.”

This idea rests on a fundamental fallacy: that large multinational companies (e.g., NIKE, adidas, Jansport) contracting with local producers are helpless entities unable to have an effect on conditions in local factors. Modern evidence, however, disproves such a contention (Ross, 1997). Independent academics have learned that corporations often “squeeze their contractors into paying sub-minimum wages. Large retailers and retail chains pressure contract manufacturers by refusing to pay more than a rock-bottom price for manufacturing orders” (Given, 1997).
Public pressure, history shows, causes many multinationals to pressure local owners to improve working conditions in order to improve their reputations. As Iowa Senator Tom Harkin suggested, in rallying to produce a list of abusers and generate American consumer pressure against them, “Just as human rights organizations such as Amnesty International are able to document cases of human rights abuses and torture around the world, so can the identities of those industries and their host countries that are violating international labor standards…be identified” (Harkin, 1996). In fact, agencies have been created to monitor the conditions of such factories, and monitoring combined with public pressure can result in the improvement of such facilities. For example, reacting to public outrage in 1996, Liz Claiborne, NIKE, Phillips-Van Heusen, and L.L. Bean joined into an “Apparel Industry Partnership” to take steps to end sweatshop abuses (Salomon, 1996). Continued pressure will force the compliance of other companies as well.

•   “If companies are forced to increase wages or improve conditions, they won’t simply pay the same number of workers more. They will relocate to somewhere with fewer restrictions.”

The idea that companies will “not like” the improvement of conditions is indeed correct. But, obviously, if corporations were allowed to do whatever they wanted, our world would go to hell. That’s precisely the reason we have regulations to mandate what is permissible and what isn’t--it’s the very reason we have seatbelts in our cars and arsenic limits for our water. The idea that corporations “won’t simply pay” is ignorant of the basic idea of a corporate charter. Corporations, in becoming incorporated, are granted a charter by the state under the edict that they are responsible to the state, just like any citizen. The state sets a minimum wage, but one could say that corporations wouldn’t “simply pay” that either. Because every corporation is ultimately required to be responsive to the state according to its charter, every corporation is required to pay a minimum wage anyway. Common sense and history argue against the idea that it would be best for corporations to act without any guidelines and have free reign over society. Therefore it’s society’s responsibility to determine what we allow and what we require of corporations, and corporations, because of the charter they have received, are just as responsible as regular citizens in having to follow law.

Ravs

Offline miko2d

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3177
Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #89 on: November 11, 2003, 11:28:05 AM »
ravells: Slavery might also be better than starvation, yet nobody advocates a return to slavery.

 Job is taken voluntarily. If people voluntarily take a job that is associated with abuse, it only makes me wonder how are their alternative choices.

This idea rests on a fundamental fallacy: that large multinational companies (e.g., NIKE, adidas, Jansport) contracting with local producers are helpless entities unable to have an effect on conditions in local factors.

 Why should those companies pay extra money to increase the welfare of those workers? Why shouldn't any people with extra money pay for it?
 Let them earn $.25 from Nike and get subcidy from whovever else is charitable. No reason to forbit Nike to offer a job at $.25.

 But, obviously, if corporations were allowed to do whatever they wanted, our world would go to hell.

 That is absolutely not true. Companies do what their consumers demand and they compete for resources, including labor and materials.

 The state sets a minimum wage

 Minimum wage prevents a worker with low productivity from obtaining any employment.

 miko