Author Topic: Me109 modeller's question(s)  (Read 445 times)

Offline gofaster

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Me109 modeller's question(s)
« on: November 11, 2003, 01:48:44 PM »
My question got lost in another post so I'll ask it here.

There is a question that's been vexing me for some time. I'm trying to build scale models of the airplanes used in Aces High, but the only late-war kit of the 109 I can find is the K4. What is the difference between a K4 and a G10? I know the K4 had a wooden tail empennage, but is there any other difference in the airframes or armaments?

Incidentally, Hasegawa makes/made a 1/72 scale model kit of the 109E as represented in Aces High, identical right down to the decals. I can't remember the unit, but it was one based on the Channel during BoB. I may still have the instruction sheet at home.  Hasegawa also makes a representation of the 1/72 P-51D and FW190A mimicked in Aces High, too.

Offline Dr Zhivago

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« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2003, 05:00:01 PM »
http://www.jiop.fi/ksimuseo/faq_bf109evogc.html
http://www.jiop.fi/ksimuseo/faq_bf109evok.html

http://www.messerschmitt-bf109.de/php-frames/merkmale-frame.php

The K-1 through 3 remained projects only and the only K to see serial production was the K-4. The DB 605D engine was standard. This featured the enlarged supercharger of the DB 603 engine first used on the DB 605AS series that was used in the G-6/AS and later the G-14/AS series. The D featured and enlarged oil tank behind the propeller, redesigned electrical components, a relocated cold weather starting position on the right cowling, and larger cylinder heads. It also used a wider-bladed propeller than the AS series. It standardized the use of MW-50 which was feed directly into the supercharger intake. (GM-1 was never used on the K-4 as the enlarged supercharger of the 605D precluded its necessity). The fuel could be 100 or 87 octane depending on the use of MW-50 and what fuel was available. C3 and B4 are the synthetic versions of 100 and 87 octane. The engine could be altered to use either fuel.

The use of the larger supercharger caused the left main engine bearer to curve up and over the supercharger. In common with the earlier G-6/AS and G-14/AS and the G-10, the K-4 used the "refined" cowling to streamline the bulges caused by this engine bearer and the ammunition feeds for the cowling mounted MG 131 guns (used beginning with the G-6). Various styles of this "refined" cowling can be seen on the G aircraft caused mainly by the fact that all those were rebuilt aircraft from different factories and the method of dealing with the "refined" shape was accomplished differently. The K-4, since it was built as one production group, seems to have the same shaped bulges throughout its production run. Again, in common with the G-10 (and some G-14/AS aircraft), the K-4 had the small bulges under the forward cowling. This was caused by the rerouting of oil cooler lines around the larger cylinder heads of the DB 605D engine.

Three very visible differences in the K-4 compared with the G series are:

The relocated radio access hatch on the left fuselage side (higher and forward).

The relocated D/F loop from fuselage frame 3 to frame 4.

The use of a retractable tail wheel concurrent with the use of the longer shafted tailwheel.

Another visible difference was the use of a small, retractable landing gear cover for the outside of the wheel well. This had been contemplated as early as the F and G, but finally made its appearance with the K-4. Apparently these tended to give problems when used on the grass airfields the Luftwaffe used, so ground crews often removed them.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2003, 05:06:06 PM by Dr Zhivago »

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2003, 05:25:07 PM »
There are 1/48th scale G10 kits. In fact there are two good ones.

The fully modern and better detailed Hasegawa kit:

http://www.kitparade.com/features01/bf109g10white11bg_1.htm

And the older but still decent Revell/Monogram kit:

http://www.kitparade.com/features00/bf109g10ci_1.htm

http://www.kitparade.com/features00/bf109g10bw_1.htm

Offline Mathman

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« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2003, 09:15:03 PM »
Since it seems you are interested in 1/72nd scale, .Revell appears to make one and it seems to have been recently re-released.

Also, for some good 109 model info (and general 109 information as well), take a look at the 109 Lair.

Offline gofaster

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« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2003, 09:41:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dr Zhivago
http://www.jiop.fi/ksimuseo/faq_bf109evogc.html
http://www.jiop.fi/ksimuseo/faq_bf109evok.html

http://www.messerschmitt-bf109.de/php-frames/merkmale-frame.php

Three very visible differences in the K-4 compared with the G series are:

The relocated radio access hatch on the left fuselage side (higher and forward).

The relocated D/F loop from fuselage frame 3 to frame 4.

The use of a retractable tail wheel concurrent with the use of the longer shafted tailwheel.

Another visible difference was the use of a small, retractable landing gear cover for the outside of the wheel well. This had been contemplated as early as the F and G, but finally made its appearance with the K-4. Apparently these tended to give problems when used on the grass airfields the Luftwaffe used, so ground crews often removed them.


Excellent links!  And also thanks for the info about the shape of the curved engine covers and the three other visible differences.  I have the 1/72 Heller 109K-4 kit and was going to see how hard it would be to convert it to a G-10 (seems like it wouldn't be too difficult based on your information), but I think I will go ahead and build it as a K-4, complete with gondolas and drop tank from an Airfix 109G kit.

The Heller 109K-4 is a pretty nice little kit, considering its vintage and low price.  It is certainly better than the Airfix 109G.  If you want to try a model, it is a good one to start with.

Thanks!

Offline gofaster

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« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2003, 09:44:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mathman
Since it seems you are interested in 1/72nd scale, .Revell appears to make one and it seems to have been recently re-released.


He shoots, he scores!  That's exactly what I was looking for.  Thanks, Mathman.  I'll take a look at the 109 lair while I'm at it.

Offline gofaster

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Posting info here so I don't lose it before I get home!
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2003, 09:54:22 AM »
Quote
info from V1010-Isegrim:

K-4 was different from G-10 in the following :

-rearranged internal equipment (not much interest to you)
-different cocpit arrangement
-no rectangular bulge in the rear of the cocpit (for point above)
-DF loop moved one frame to rear on fusalge top
-long tailwheel*, wheel bay doors for main and tail u/c, rectangular upper fairings for larger wheels on top wing*. Retractable tailwheel
-slightly wider undercarriege
-longer spinner
-circular access hatch for compass deleted on port lower fusalge
-rectangular access hatch on port lower fusalge was redesigned in shape, moved one frame front, and to higher postition
-wooden tail unit* (as a matter of fact, this is true for 90% of the late 109)
-slightly raised upper cowling
-MK 108 being standard. Otherwise same armament.
-abilty to carry bombs as large as 500 kg
-ability to use 115 liter MW tank as ferry tank with fuel
-G-10 being a few dozen kilos lighter, but -20 km/h faster. On the other hand, it climbed marginally better on similiar power.

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2003, 10:54:32 AM »
IIRC I forgot to note in the other thread, the parts marked with * also appeared on the G-10 and other late G models.

Offline gofaster

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« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2003, 03:36:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dr Zhivago
http://www.messerschmitt-bf109.de/php-frames/merkmale-frame.php


This is particularly interesting.  
 

Based on this comparison, I think a conversion could be done to make a G-10 into a K with some sanding and re-scribing of the rudder lines, but it would be easier to find the Revell G-10 and have both the G-10 and K models on my shelf.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2003, 03:40:39 PM »
G-10 and K4 both have the same tail - you will not have to change it.

Im that picture you show the earlier 109 tail which was in use until the G6. The G10, some late G6, G14 and and K4 all had the later style tail.


Offline gofaster

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« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2003, 09:35:23 AM »
Hmm. Looks like the rudder trim tabs would be the most noticable difference between the two variants and would save me the trouble of re-scribing.

I might have to consider that if the Revell G-10 doesn't pan out.