Author Topic: Jose Padilla anyone know who this is?  (Read 6890 times)

Offline Martlet

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Jose Padilla anyone know who this is?
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2003, 02:07:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
Already long before 9-11 and long before the Fla recount, you had special provisions in your law allowing certain Federal agencies to hold citizens on certain charges, under certain conditions "outside" normal laws. Nothing new with that...nothing strange with it either. So sorry, troll somewhere else.


You don't have the faintest idea what you are talking about.

Quote
Originally posted by DmdNexus
Party? You mean LaRouche is out of prison?

Thought you were ignoring me? :aok


Is English your first language?  Can you read?

Offline GtoRA2

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Jose Padilla anyone know who this is? "is this justice thread"
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2003, 02:09:42 PM »
Martlet
 If you keep posting his posts, I end up seeing them, and then he gets to look dumber when he thinks I read them on my own and not through you.

Just let his crap drop lol.

Offline miko2d

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Jose Padilla anyone know who this is?
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2003, 02:15:21 PM »
Hortlund: Already long before 9-11 and long before the Fla recount, you had special provisions in your law allowing certain Federal agencies to hold citizens on certain charges...

 Right - on certain charges. He has not been charged, you idiot - that's the whole point of this thread.
 Nobody here claims he is innocent. Let them charge him and prosecute him.

, under certain conditions "outside" normal laws. Nothing new with that...

 Nothing constitutional either.
Quote
Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury ...except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war ... nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law[/b]...


 Do you see any exceptions listed there for non-military personnel, you dolt?

 miko

Offline DmdNexus

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jose Padilla anyone know who this is?
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2003, 02:16:06 PM »
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Originally posted by Martlet
Is English your first language?  Can you read?


No English is not my first language.... it's one of many that I am illiterate in.

If you were referring to me being a democrat... I am not.

I'd rather belong to LaRouche's radical party then be with Democrats or Republicans.

Offline Hortlund

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jose Padilla anyone know who this is?
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2003, 02:34:37 PM »
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Originally posted by miko2d
Do you see any exceptions listed there for non-military personnel, you dolt?
 

Maybe this would be a good time for you to ponder over the phrasing "due process of law" and its implications...

Offline Sikboy

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jose Padilla anyone know who this is?
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2003, 02:37:38 PM »
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Maybe this would be a good time for you to ponder over the phrasing "due process of law" and its implications...


Or better yet, we can all read the 14th amendment to the US constitution.

-Sik
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Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline Sikboy

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jose Padilla anyone know who this is?
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2003, 02:39:32 PM »
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Originally posted by Sikboy
Or better yet, we can all read the 14th amendment to the US constitution.

-Sik


lol, never mind, the due process clause isn't nearly as usefull as it might have been :)

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Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline Mini D

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Jose Padilla anyone know who this is? "is this justice thread"
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2003, 02:39:57 PM »
He is being held as a combatant.  A pretty good read on it:

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/LAW/10/01/findlaw.analysis.hilden.padilla/

It's best to avoid the web sites with the "victims" name as the header.  I've found they tend to be a bit biased.

Can't say I agree with the decision, though doing it any other way would mean they could not legally get information from him.  I do like CNN's hint to "torture". :rolleyes:

Basically, you don't have to press charges when you capture the enemy.  I do believe everyone from all sides is going to aproach this one very cautiously... not out of fear of the administration but out of fear of precident.

BTW... Kudos to the "Oh yea... well how about THIS guy!?!" aproach.  Keep trying boys.... eventually you'll find a single incident that uncovers the reign of terror that is the Bush administration's violations of everyone's civil rights.

MiniD

Offline MJHerman

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Jose Padilla anyone know who this is? "is this justice thread"
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2003, 02:49:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
He is being held as a combatant.  A pretty good read on it:

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/LAW/10/01/findlaw.analysis.hilden.padilla/

It's best to avoid the web sites with the "victims" name as the header.  I've found they tend to be a bit biased.

Can't say I agree with the decision, though doing it any other way would mean they could not legally get information from him.  I do like CNN's hint to "torture". :rolleyes:

Basically, you don't have to press charges when you capture the enemy.  I do believe everyone from all sides is going to aproach this one very cautiously... not out of fear of the administration but out of fear of precident.

BTW... Kudos to the "Oh yea... well how about THIS guy!?!" aproach.  Keep trying boys.... eventually you'll find a single incident that uncovers the reign of terror that is the Bush administration's violations of everyone's civil rights.

MiniD


The fact that he is labelled as a combatant doesn't mean that holding him without trial, charge, counsel, etc. is constitutional.

I'm not a U.S. constitutional scholar or expert, but I assume that the President only derives his authority from the Constitution which, by definition means that he cannot exercise any authority which conflicts with the Constitution, including labelling someone in such a way that the Constitution does not apply to that person.

In a western liberal democracy, the rule of law is supposed to prevail.  Some pretty bad precedents can be set when exceptions are made to that general principle.  It may have been a U.S. Supreme Court Justice who once said that hard cases make for bad law....which was not an excuse but rather a somewhat sombre observation on his part.

Just my two cents.

Offline capt. apathy

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Jose Padilla anyone know who this is? "is this justice thread"
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2003, 02:51:53 PM »
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It completely depends on the circumstances surrounding the incident. I can't make a blanket statement like that. In this case, yes. I can see why others wouldn't, though. I, personally, only need to be shown that a person was working with Al Queda. After that, I don't care what happens to them.

Why? Because I do believe this is a war on terror. It isn't a traditional war, where people don their sides uniform. It's different. If someone can show me a person was participating in this war, and was on the other side, then they can hold him for as long as they'd like with no complaint from me. That question has been answered to my satisfaction in this case.


I agree with what you are saying but the problem is it hasn't been 'shown'.  in this country the legal way to 'show' someone was doing something that is illegal, is to get an inditment and make your case in court.  then the accused can deffend themselves against your acusations.

as it is nothing has been 'shown'  just claimed.  

you may find the acussation alone to be proof.  I don't.  I find accusations that the gov't isn't willing to take to court extremely suspect.  if it's true they can prove it, if they can't then, officially, it never happened.  thats one of the main pillars our whole system of justice is built on.

aside from this guys inocence or guilt this sort of procedure is a huge threat to our way of life.  legally, once we acept this, whats to stop the sitting president from just declairing all of his political adversarys 'enemies of the state' (says he knows it, doesn't want to prove it, just trust him).

this is a bigger threat to the security of america than al-Queda.


btw- it's been my experience that most people who ask that you trust them without proof, can't be trusted.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2003, 02:53:57 PM by capt. apathy »

Offline Mini D

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Jose Padilla anyone know who this is? "is this justice thread"
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2003, 02:58:26 PM »
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Originally posted by MJHerman
The fact that he is labelled as a combatant doesn't mean that holding him without trial, charge, counsel, etc. is constitutional.
Actually... it does.  It makes all the difference in the world.  Unfortunately, there isn't a clear cut guideline for establishing the enemy combatant status.  It's really why this is dragging on so long.

MiniD

Offline Hortlund

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Jose Padilla anyone know who this is? "is this justice thread"
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2003, 02:58:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by capt. apathy
this is a bigger threat to the security of america than al-Queda.
 


Well, at least you have your perspectives in order... 9-11 and the anthrax letters sure proved that :aok

Offline GtoRA2

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Jose Padilla anyone know who this is? "is this justice thread"
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2003, 02:59:52 PM »
Mini D
 I am not anti Bush, though I see this as very questionable.

 The otherguy was a straw man, I brought this one up cause there are valid issue to discuss and I did not do it to just bash the admin.  

What wrong with discussing this?

Offline miko2d

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jose Padilla anyone know who this is?
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2003, 03:00:40 PM »
Hortlund: Maybe this would be a good time for you to ponder over the phrasing "due process of law" and its implications...

 The only implication is that he must be charged - with treason in this case. You see any other implications?

Sikboy: Or better yet, we can all read the 14th amendment to the US constitution.

 14th amendment is no help here. The section about due process refers to the States only, not the federal government.
 It's the 5th amendment issue.

 miko

Offline DmdNexus

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Jose Padilla anyone know who this is? "is this justice thread"
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2003, 03:00:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
He is being held as a combatant.  A pretty good read on it:



The article points out the dilema the government faces very well.... thanks for the link!

However, the consititution is the foundation of law and authority in this country. And government is created from and takes action based upon it's authority.

The executive branch cannot override that authority through executive orders, nor can the congress by passing an act.

The appropriate legal course of action is a constitutional admendment to have a limited bill of rights in times of war.

However, until that course of action is taken... the government must obey the law. The government arbitrarily putting labels on people to ursurp the authority of the constitution is a dangerous precedence.... and is not constitutional.... this is the debate making it's way to the supreme court.

The courts have in the past deferred to the president and congress in times of war... that's why they tend to be silent on these matters... such as during WWII and the internment of Japanese Americans. Doesn't mean what they do is right or legal.