I have a DVD in which Bader (on screen)states..

[Curval]

that the FW190A outperformed the Spit V in every category and thus the introduction of the Spit IX.

He said it was even more manouverable.

I'm not so sure this bears out in AH.

Your thoughts?

[mold]

Originally posted by Curval
He said it was even more manouverable.

I would guess this is the same type of stuff as the Kit Carson "critique" of the 109, meaning not something to take seriously.  Or maybe he was just talking about high speed handling.  I seem to recall reading that a German Ace said something similar to this about 190 vs Spit5, but he specifically stated he was talking about roll-manuverability, saying this was more important than turning.  Forgot exactly where I saw that.

[JB73]

ive heard the same things...


not only was roll way better but elevator authority in general.

[HoHun]

Hi Curval,

>that the FW190A outperformed the Spit V in every category and thus the introduction of the Spit IX.

Well, Bader gave most of the German equipment rather bad grades in his book, so if he says something good about them I'd tend to believe it.

>He said it was even more manouverable.

Do you mean the Spitfire IX was more manoeuvrable than the Spitfire V, or the Fw 190A was more manoeuvrable than the Spitfire V?

I think the consensus was that the Spitfire V was inferior in everything but its ability to turn. And "turning doesn't win battles", Johnny Johnson remarked.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Curval]

Originally posted by HoHun
Do you mean the...190A was more manoeuvrable than the Spitfire V?

I think the consensus was that the Spitfire V was inferior in everything but its ability to turn. And "turning doesn't win battles", Johnny Johnson remarked.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Yes.

Bader actually says "It is superior in every respect"..but you gotta give the edge to the Spit V for turning.

Even so...level con at 300IAS...in Ah I'd rather be in the spit.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Curval
Yes.

Bader actually says "It is superior in every respect"..but you gotta give the edge to the Spit V for turning.

Even so...level con at 300IAS...in Ah I'd rather be in the spit.

The bolded qualification is why this example is poor.

In reality the odds of both the Spitfire Mk V and Fw190A-2 being at the same altitude and going 300ias is very, very slim.  The Spitfire Mk IX cruised at 280mph, the Spitfire Mk V I'd imagine was about 250mph.  The Fw190 will, in reality, almost always have both the speed and altitude on the Spitfire Mk V.

[wklink]

I think most of us know that the Spit V had a better sustained turn rate than the FW 190 series.  The initial turn rates were pretty close but the Spit was better overall.

Other than that the FW was superior in Dive, roll, and Top end speed-pretty much what turned out to be the major categories that defined survival in combat.  The Spit IX fixed the top end speed difference, hence the reason it was rushed into production.  

This isn't anything new.  I don't know why Bader would say the FW was better than the Spit V in everything.  I do believe the FW was better in what really counted in WW2 combat, it could dicate the fight on its terms and could break off and leave anytime it wanted.  The Spit couldn't do that.  Of course that is what killed the I-16, the Zero, and the M202 IMHO.  Good planes that just couldn't dicate the terms of battle.

[Booky]

I have a DVD that says the F4F outperformed every other aircraft of the war, friend and foe.  It must be true.

[Curval]

Originally posted by Booky
I have a DVD that says the F4F outperformed every other aircraft of the war, friend and foe.  It must be true.

Very clever Booky.

But it isn't my DVD that said it...it was Douglas Bader, possibly THE most respected British pilot of the war, who was actually fighting in the Battle of Britain on the DVD that said it.

wklink has the best explanation so far...but don't shoot the messenger..."I" didn't say the FW190A was better in every respect...Bader did.

[fats]

Perhaps he said "every aspect" but meant "every aspect that mattered". If you lose in top end speed and climbing you're not going to dictate the terms of fight very often with turning alone.

If you can get vertical separation you can negate turning by rolling which apparently the Fw 190 did quite well. And you get that vertical separation with better top speed and climbing.


// fats

[davidpt40]

Perhaps hes old and crazy now.  I saw the pilot of the Memphis Belle on tv say that Me109s shot at B17s with 4 20mm in their wings.

[Kweassa]

Maneuverability means a lot of things.

 As the speed gets higher, the importance of turning ability increasingly falls down, while the importance elevator responsiveness and roll rates grow up. Since I started flying 109s, never a day goes by without envying how those P-51s handle at high speed. Elevator authority and roll ability, is the key to high-speed fights.


 With the exception of the clip-wing Spitfires, to my knowledge all Spitfires were more or less average/mediocre in roll, and the tendency of heavy controls and reduction of roll rate were well noted.

 A skilled opponent in a Spitfire is always a feared enemy, but if the pilot is more or less inexperienced, I can outmaneuver a Spitfire in a high speed fight. Even if he is skilled, there's high chance I can manage escape by a simple 'flick' of a roll, if, I can lure him into a chase of 350 mph+

[Guppy35]

Bader wasn't saying anything new, and he's been dead for quite some time so this isn't a recent comment.  Also keep in mind that Bader went down in August 1941 PRIOR to the introduction of the 190 to combat so he never fought it himself.

From the RAF AFDU trials between a Spit Vb and captured 190 in July 1942

(Paraphrasing)  Speed of the 190 is better then the Spit Vb at all heights.

Climb of the 190 is better then the Spit Vb at all heights

Dive-190 can leave a Spit Vb behind with ease

Manoeverability-The manoeverability of the 190 is better then the Spit Vb except in turning circles when the Spit can easily out turn it.

Same trials in July 42 with an early Spit IX vs the 190

Speeds were about the same at all heights with differences of 5-7 mph in either aircraft's favor depending on alt.

Climb was about even to 22K with the 190 climb rate falling off above this height and the Spit IX increasing.

Dive was still in the 190's favor although not as much as vs the Spit Vb

Manoeverability was again in the 190's favor except in turning circles.

General conclusion being that the Spit IX and 190 were about even overall.



Bottom line is the Spit Vb pilots knew they were in for a hard time against the 190s and the Spit IX pilots went into the fight feeling like they had the edge.  It had to be a huge factor to have that confidence going into the fight for the IX pilots.

Dan/Slack