Author Topic: What is it with this 'Liberal' thing?  (Read 8361 times)

Offline AKcurly

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What is it with this 'Liberal' thing?
« Reply #105 on: November 18, 2003, 12:58:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hooligan
It is still a choice.  You can tell Bill to FO.  Is the risk of second hand smoke worse than unemployment?  It should be up to the individual to decide


Hooligan, you must have been born with a silver spoon up your butt. :)  You obviously have no idea how desperate  the situation can become for someone who has a low profile on the job market.  Getting another job simply isn't an option for many folks.


I believe it because it is true.  

From dictionary.reference.com:

Monoply:

1) Exclusive control by one group of the means of producing or selling a commodity or service: “Monopoly frequently... arises from government support or from collusive agreements among individuals” (Milton Friedman).

2) Law. A right granted by a government giving exclusive control over a specified commercial activity to a single party.

3) A company or group having exclusive control over a commercial activity.

Really, think about it.  Can you legally buy a different O/S than Windows?  You can so it is not a monoply.  Can you name even one non-government sponsored monoply?  I can't.  You can disprove with an example but I don't think that is going to happen.


Hooligan, you are having trouble with the difference between monopolies de jure and monopolies in principal.  One is illegal (in principal) and the other isn't.  

Microsoft is a monopoly in principal.


I think only the most incompetent of criminals don't know how to steal and switch a license plate.  I remain unconvinced that there is a need for them.


It happens every day,feller.   With license tags, you have no easy way to trace automobiles.  To be sure, it's no deterrence to professional car thieves, but it is a useful tool against  lunatics who nab children.

curly

Offline AKcurly

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What is it with this 'Liberal' thing?
« Reply #106 on: November 18, 2003, 01:00:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2

I am confused a little about monopolies.   If they are so bad then how are they good when they are government controlled?
lazs


Chute!  Chute!

curly

Offline AKcurly

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What is it with this 'Liberal' thing?
« Reply #107 on: November 18, 2003, 01:53:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
curly... we agree i suppose..  I believe it allright for the government  to protect children from morons... they can require baby car seats and helmets on mororcycles etc.   no problem   I am talking about adults.   I also have no problem with seat belts being required equipment .... wearing them should be optional.


Yeah, me too lazs, no argument here.  The place to change things is at the ballot box.

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I also believe that more people were in danger from outside sources during the making of the constitution than now even.     I believe the constitution provides for these things... when all those people were imprisoned during the civil war or... when all those japs were intured during WWII.... did those desperate "extraordinary" measures really make us any safer?


Well,  the civil war was unpopular in many places in the North.   Many wealthy folks simply wanted to walk away from it -- cost too much money.  And of course, the wealthy controlled the press (or a lot of it.)  A. Lincoln shut down some newspapers too.

I haven't really investigated civil actions  during ww2.

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so far as rights go... I can't see just voting them away and then seeing how it works out hoping that we will simply get the chance to vote them back in when we see the error... I don't believe some things should be voted on.  


Why?  If I have to live under "your rules", surely I should have the opportunity to punch a ballot.

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For instance..  would it be ok if we all voted to send all the black people in this country to africa?   we would reduce crime instantly and save lives.   If it turned out to be a bad law we could just  repeal it later... after all.... the experiment with prohibition didn't really cause much of a problem did it?
 


Well Lazs, while you're busy sending the black folks to Africa, be sure to bundle up the unmarried white women with children!  They constitute well over  75% of welfare moms.  Lazs, I'm being sarcastic -- hope you are too.

curly

Offline ravells

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What is it with this 'Liberal' thing?
« Reply #108 on: November 18, 2003, 05:33:29 AM »
Lazs

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what weird results would those be? Most results are predictable if you use logic.. liberals want to force the result based on some vague "feeling" not logic or fact.

While I have seen many liberal ideas result in very "weird" and harmful results.... I have never seen ones based on logic and fact do so.
lazs




I'll be happy to explain why I think the consistency of your view ends in weird results.

You take the view that all convicted criminals, under every circumstance should be released into society after serving their sentences without any restrictions on what they can or cannot do after they leave prison. You base this on the presumption that if someone has served their sentence the slate should be 'wiped clean'  regardless of the crime. If there is a doubt about whether they will reoffend then they should continue to remain in prison.

You are comfortable that child abusers, after they have served their term in prison should be allowed to work with minors (albeit that you would like to see a death penalty for them, but this state of affairs does not universally exist)

You are confortable that people convicted of gun crime should be allowed to own a firearm on release from prison.

The list could go on, but these two results should serve as absurd conclusions in themselves of your proposition.

The problem, I think, is that you live in a 'black and white' world and unable to see shades of grey.  Of course, I agree with you that if someone is convicted of a minor shoplifting offence they should be allowed back into shops on their release and their rights fully restored. However, I find that extending that to giving violent criminals free access to guns or child abusers free access to children  totally wacky.  I expect that most would agree.

Ravs.

Offline lazs2

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What is it with this 'Liberal' thing?
« Reply #109 on: November 18, 2003, 08:28:03 AM »
curly... pathetic..  a government monopoly is ok but not a private one?  Seems I have been damaged more during my lifetime by government monopolies than any private ones... when government reliqueshes their monopoly the cost is halved in every case... if I am in a chute you are dangling there with me.   on the white women thing...fine... if your goal is to reduce welfare then lets all vote to send the single white women off somewhere but....   Would be easier to get rid of all the blacks tho because we outnumber them and vote more and nobody likes crime.... I mean... it would be ok so long as we voted right?

rav... interesting theory... you mean letting criminals go is a bad thing?   My executing them or keeping them till they were old and infirm wouldn't work?   Maybe we should stay with the liberal way that is working so well now... we keep em maybe 1/3 of their sentance... if we sentance them.... because we can't really... cause the prisons are full of repeat offenders.  we take away most of their rights if we do let em out and make sure that they realize that they are 3rd class citizens that are despised by all and shunned so that they have a good excuse to re offend.   In the first part of the last century people were incarcerated longer and they were less prone to reoffend.   They had their rights restored upon leaving prison... they actually did hand them their guns back but, for the most part.... the youthful fight and anger was out of em..

I would submit that it is your prison reform and parole system that has resulted in weird results... not mine.   If I were a criminal and given the choice of ten years in prison and then having all my rights restored or 5 years and no rights ever again and 5 years of parole.... I would take the ten years... unless... unless I was a career criminal just looking to get out as soon as possible to get back into crime.   "rights" and "laws" are of little importance to a criminal.

lazs

Offline lazs2

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What is it with this 'Liberal' thing?
« Reply #110 on: November 18, 2003, 08:34:53 AM »
rav... what I find absurd is your idea of gray...  everything is gray to you.   you overhink everything and make it more complex than it needs to be.   How would letting a murderer out after say 40 years be any worse than letting 20 of em out with (LOL) "parole" after 5 years while they are still in their most violent years of life?   How is making "rules" for child molesters gonna work?   Are you saying that no child molesters re offend under your curren "gray" system?   They would not under my black and white one.

Are you saying that not being able to LEGALLY buy a firearm is gonna deter all the violent criminals that you have released through your "gray" system...

we are all seeing the absurd results of your complex and confusing, nonsensical penal system... You yourself were bemoaning the recidivism of your own country... and why not?   you created it.

I think it does boil down to liberal and conservative... you love humanity but hate people... the example holds... you want to do nice things for the criminal caste but hate the individuals...  I look at every criminal as an individual.   I punish him for his offense and then tell him.... "you did your time... if yu want to be a man amongst men then here is your chance... good luck."

lazs
« Last Edit: November 18, 2003, 08:38:59 AM by lazs2 »

Offline ravells

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What is it with this 'Liberal' thing?
« Reply #111 on: November 18, 2003, 12:13:04 PM »
Lasz,

You had not mentioned until now that your method of preventing recidivism to put people into prison for so long they'd be too old to commit crimes on their release.  Sure, that would solve the problem and changes the complexion of your argument entirely.

You're going to need a hell of a lot more prisons though which will translate into a massive tax burden which people are unlikely to vote for (after all, who wants a government with a high taxation policy like a liberal government?). So that leaves you with - parole. Not ideal, I grant you, but relieving prison overcrowding is a large reason why we have parole. Given that we have to live with the fact (unless and until more prisons are built) better to have some control over people when they do get out than giving them a carte blanche to reoffend, don't you think?

It *is* a fact that there is always more than one way at looking at a problem. Many everyday decisions we make are 'judgement calls' of one description or another - hence the shades of grey.

What makes you think 'I love the criminal caste'? You were the one who was advocating that they be freed with all their rights intact.

You say I hate the individual.  Do you think your average prisoner would prefer to be in prison for 20 years with a chance of parole after 10, or serve the full 20 years without a chance of parole (as you suggest all criminals with 20 year sentences should).  Sounds like you're tarring everybody with the same brush in your scheme which is not very individualistic, is it?

lol...I liked what you said about me overthinking stuff and making it more complicated than it needed to be, as I was thinking that you were underthinking stuff and simplifying it too much! - One more difference between liberals and conservatives perhaps?

take care.

Ravs

Offline Airhead

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What is it with this 'Liberal' thing?
« Reply #112 on: November 18, 2003, 01:52:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
Wrong. People or workers choose to patronize or work at a place that allows smoking. Absolutely no need for government intrusion. Your statement still amounts to people aren't smart or responsible enough to make choices for themselves.


Kieran, I'm surprised you feel that way. By that logic then the Government has no rights whatsoever to enforce safety regulations (OSHA) in sawmills, mines, textile factories- any industry.

LOL You are more right wing than I thought.

:)

Offline lazs2

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What is it with this 'Liberal' thing?
« Reply #113 on: November 18, 2003, 02:31:41 PM »
rav... my point was that yu love the criminal humanity by light or no, sentances, early release, parole... etc. but you hate the person by depriving him of his humanity...  Arguably, he did it to himself but if he served his time he deserves a real chance not some liberal caste system..

How would keeping criminals in for their full sentance cost so much?  no more parole officers.... no expensive trial for the same guy every 2 or 3 years... and, most of all..... lots less loss of property and life and fewer ruined lives....

Say I am wrong... say that after a 20 year sentance an armed robber takes his legal gun and does another robbery.   maybe he kills or injures someone.... maybe not.

How is that different than you letting him out in 5 years and him doing the same thing with an illegal weapon?   With my system he gets another 20 maybe 30 or 50 year sentance... with yours he gets another 30 years which means he is out in 6 or 7 doing it again... maybe he gets caught the next time and maybe he gets caught after the next dozen or so crimes.

How is having these criminals out on the street cheaper than paying for a cell for em?

We will allways have a certain amount of violent criminals... that percent stays pretty constant throughout time... they need to be incarcerated in a meaningful way and they also need a chance to change.

Airhead... I believe that law suits have more to do with safe work practices and insurance issues than osha.   Companies should be made to provide all necessary safety equipment as part of their bussiness licence... they can make it mandatory or not to use it at their whim but... workers who don't use safety equipment would not be covered under the companies insurance.
lazs


lazs

Offline Kieran

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What is it with this 'Liberal' thing?
« Reply #114 on: November 18, 2003, 02:50:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead
Kieran, I'm surprised you feel that way. By that logic then the Government has no rights whatsoever to enforce safety regulations (OSHA) in sawmills, mines, textile factories- any industry.

LOL You are more right wing than I thought.

:)


Believe it. The government shouldn't regulate those things, they should be negotiated between the union and the company. THAT'S what unions are for.

Offline Airhead

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What is it with this 'Liberal' thing?
« Reply #115 on: November 18, 2003, 03:33:30 PM »
"Believe it. The government shouldn't regulate those things, they should be negotiated between the union and the company. THAT'S what unions are for."

LOL How bout minimum wages? The 40 hour work week? Child labor laws? Are all of these issues that should be negotiated by a Union?

Seriously, are you trolling me? Friends don't troll friends bud.

Offline AKIron

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What is it with this 'Liberal' thing?
« Reply #116 on: November 18, 2003, 03:39:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
 With my system he gets another 20 maybe 30 or 50 year sentance... with yours he gets another 30 years which means he is out in 6 or 7 doing it again... maybe he gets caught the next time and maybe he gets caught after the next dozen or so crimes.

lazs


You got your furball map lazs but I doubt you'll get your "system".  FWIW, I agree that criminals, especially the violent ones, should do all or at least most of their sentence.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Kieran

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What is it with this 'Liberal' thing?
« Reply #117 on: November 18, 2003, 05:28:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead


LOL How bout minimum wages? The 40 hour work week? Child labor laws? Are all of these issues that should be negotiated by a Union?

Seriously, are you trolling me? Friends don't troll friends bud.


What are unions for, then?

Offline Airhead

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What is it with this 'Liberal' thing?
« Reply #118 on: November 18, 2003, 05:35:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
What are unions for, then?



I thought Conservatives hated the labor movement?

Offline Kieran

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What is it with this 'Liberal' thing?
« Reply #119 on: November 18, 2003, 05:51:56 PM »
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Originally posted by Airhead
I thought Conservatives hated the labor movement?


This conservative hates what they've become. In concept they are just fine.