Author Topic: La5-F4U flats (Read 657 times)

moot · « **on:** November 15, 2003, 10:52:28 PM »

Equal pilots, equal E, otd, 300mph start speed and diametrically opposite on concentric circles, which gets the killshot?

davidpt40 · « **Reply #1 on:** November 15, 2003, 11:05:09 PM »

LA-5. F4U can hold its energy for 1 turn max. La-5 can chose to extend, out accelerate F4U, then out climb it.

F4U might have tigher instantaneous turn rate, but thats about it.

MajorDay · « **Reply #2 on:** November 15, 2003, 11:19:46 PM »

Which F4Us?

FG1-1s
F2G-1s
F3A-1s
F4U-1s
F4U-2s
F4U-3s
F4U-4s
F4U-5s
AU-1s
F4U-7

Rasker · « **Reply #3 on:** November 15, 2003, 11:37:37 PM »

At what altitude? I've read that La-5 & 7 performance attentuates with alt.

davidpt40 · « **Reply #4 on:** November 15, 2003, 11:46:37 PM »

OTD means "on the deck".

moot · « **Reply #5 on:** November 16, 2003, 12:16:59 AM »

nothing allowed but to continue the flat turn.
Which one is best turner on horizontal, on the deck in other words.

If you can list how each F4 would fare, it's better than a general F4 comparison.

moot · « **Reply #6 on:** November 16, 2003, 12:17:34 AM »

and not the whole F4 zoo, just the ones in AH.

davidpt40 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 16, 2003, 01:30:01 AM »

After the first 360 degrees, the LA5 would definately have a better turn rate.

GODO · « **Reply #8 on:** November 16, 2003, 05:04:19 AM »

If the question is related to AH, La5 and F4U1D, both 50% fuel on the deck, the La5 will keep with the F4U in the first turn, and will be able to keep its E better than the F4U also for the following circles, all of that on the deck.

Furball · « **Reply #9 on:** November 16, 2003, 05:16:08 AM »

i think the f4u would get the shot first at 300mph. If the f4u misses that first shot, its in big trouble.

Many people dont seem to realise how manouverable the hog is at higher speeds, if the fight was starting below 300 my money would be on the La5.

moot · « **Reply #10 on:** November 16, 2003, 05:43:57 AM »

to keep it clear, the question is only flat turn ability, not free dogfighting.

Widewing · « **Reply #11 on:** November 16, 2003, 10:12:15 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Furball
i think the f4u would get the shot first at 300mph. If the f4u misses that first shot, its in big trouble.

Many people dont seem to realise how manouverable the hog is at higher speeds, if the fight was starting below 300 my money would be on the La5.

300 mph is well above corner velocity for both types, meaning that the turns will be blackout limited until the speeds drop. Suppose you're flying the F4U-1D. It will scrub E a bit faster than the La-5. That means that it will reach corner velocity sooner (assuming both are at full throttle). That, in turn, means that the F4U will be on the inside of the circle and will get the high 12 o'clock deflection shot. Furthermore, the F4U can deploy maneuver flaps long before the La-5 to further tighten the turn. Finally, the F4U maintains far better control at very low speeds....

Frankly, unless the La-5 breaks out of the circle, it's dead.

I fly the La-5 often, and I would not get sucked into a low-speed lufberry with an F4U if I was not allowed to pull nose high.

One last point. All the F4U driver has to do is dump the landing gear (which he can do at speeds well over 300 mph) to slow down "right now", sharply reducing the turn radius and pulverize the La-5 as it goes by.

Unless the La-5 is allowed to break out and use its acceleration and climb, it's at a disadvantage.

A few of us have done similar testing with F4Us and Yaks in the TA. And although many self-appointed experts will claim otherwise, the F4U owns the Yaks in a stallfight. Again, it boils down to far better low-speed handing and a superior flap system.

Speaking of F4Us, I still hear guys whining about the F4U-4 perk price being too high. Yet, compare it to the P-51D. The -4 wins in every category; steady climb, acceleration, roll rate, dive acceleration, and zoom climb. It's at least a match in turning ability, and can chase down the P-51D up high or on the deck.

Now if they would only drop to silly perk tags.....

My regards,

Widewing

HoHun · « **Reply #12 on:** November 16, 2003, 04:36:16 PM »

Hi Widewing,

>Suppose you're flying the F4U-1D. It will scrub E a bit faster than the La-5. That means that it will reach corner velocity sooner (assuming both are at full throttle). That, in turn, means that the F4U will be on the inside of the circle and will get the high 12 o'clock deflection shot.

On the other hand, the La-5 pilot could pull back the throttle momentarily to increase energy bleed. Of course, the F4U pilot could counter by also pulling his throttle, but the end result would be that less time is spent in the flight regime favourable for the F4U.

In a real fight, the problem with the La-5 pilot pulling back the throttle would be to notice it soon enough to counter it.

Without checking the actual figures, 300 mph doesn't sound like it's far beyond corner speed anyway - I doubt the excess speed would suffice for the F4U to gain a 180° turn advantage before corner speed is reached.

(If, of course, the F4U outturns the La-5 in a sustained turn, the transitional effects are mostly of academic interest anyway.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Widewing · « **Reply #13 on:** November 16, 2003, 07:24:18 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Widewing,

>Suppose you're flying the F4U-1D. It will scrub E a bit faster than the La-5. That means that it will reach corner velocity sooner (assuming both are at full throttle). That, in turn, means that the F4U will be on the inside of the circle and will get the high 12 o'clock deflection shot.

On the other hand, the La-5 pilot could pull back the throttle momentarily to increase energy bleed. Of course, the F4U pilot could counter by also pulling his throttle, but the end result would be that less time is spent in the flight regime favourable for the F4U.

In a real fight, the problem with the La-5 pilot pulling back the throttle would be to notice it soon enough to counter it.

Without checking the actual figures, 300 mph doesn't sound like it's far beyond corner speed anyway - I doubt the excess speed would suffice for the F4U to gain a 180° turn advantage before corner speed is reached.

(If, of course, the F4U outturns the La-5 in a sustained turn, the transitional effects are mostly of academic interest anyway.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

No matter what the La-5 pilot does, the F4U pilot can counter it and bleed down E faster...Just dumping the landing gear will slow it like a dive brake.

Corner speed for the F4U is around 255 mph. At 250 mph the F4U driver can deploy flaps, while the La-5 must be below 190 mph to do so. Once speeds get below 150 mph, the F4U has it all over the Lavochkin because the the La-5 cannot maintain a 2 G sustained turn at speeds below this without snapping into a spin, even sooner when battling torque, so the pilot must ease off on the elevators. On the other hand, the F4U can easily maintain a 2 G turn without fear of stall-spinning out of the turn.

As I said, if we drop the level turn requirement, the La-5 can use its better acceleration and climb to reverse circumstances. Except if the F4U is the F4U-4, then it's in a world of trouble.

My regards,

Widewing

moot · « **Reply #14 on:** November 16, 2003, 10:40:26 PM »

was only curious about the relative near-stall flat turn abilities, thanks for the information and discussion.