Question about ammo?

[GRUNHERZ]

Hi

One of the last posts in the closed gun string gave a scan from a German ammo manual from 1942.

       

So does the MG151 in AH have the mineshell or not? If we make the mineshell with its higher velocity and over 4 times more explosive effect available that would go a long way in making the 151 a better weapon and would end all the tiresome hispano whining. If the Hispanos can have their best possible historic loadout, why not the same for the MG151? Would anyone have any objections to introducing the mineshell to the MG151, and stopping hispano whining forever?

thanks GRUNHERZ

[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 11-02-2000).]

[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 11-02-2000).]

[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 11-02-2000).]

[GRUNHERZ]

Argh darn image

Here is the link for your cutting and pasting plesure.  

 http://otitsun.oulu.fi/~pkoski/151-ammopreview.html

[minus]

yessss the hispano failure is not modelet so no aruments on mineammo failure  and a fast  dead to laser 50 calibers and hispano nuklears  

[minus]

will some check it out damit ?

[RAM]

Yes Grunherz...Mine rounds are not modelled here.

If they were, maybe a lot of things would change...(hispanodweebsh would've been flying Fw190A8)


 
 

I've been asking for this for months.
 


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 11-02-2000).]

[Hooligan]

You guys seem to be making a couple of assumptions.

1) Mine shells are not in the modelled ammo mix.

2) Mine shells would be better than the current mix for downing fighters.

Neither of these seem like safe assumptions to me.

Hooligan

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Hooligan:


1) Mine shells are not in the modelled ammo mix.

They aren't. But if they are, then something is VERY screwed with the damage model.

2) Mine shells would be better than the current mix for downing fighters.


They will. It is way more powerful round than the standars one. hitting power would be better at the cost of some speed.


NOt bad tradeoff IMO.

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 11-02-2000).]

[Hooligan]

RAM wrote:

 

It is way more powerful round than the standars one. hitting power would be better at the cost of some speed.

First of all the Mine round is faster not slower than the other 151 rounds.

Secondly it is not "more powerful".  It has more explosive content.  This explosive comes at the cost of having very little ability to penetrate.  The Germans belted AP and Incendiary rounds in their standard belting too.  Something tells me they had a reason to do this.

Hooligan

[Jigster]

Mine shell has dual compression rings. That's interesting for a cannon shell.

[minus]

and what a hell u like to penetrate in aliminium Us planes ??????????

[Hooligan]

Minus wrote:

 

and what a hell u like to penetrate in aliminium Us planes

Pilot armor, armored ammuntion boxes, armored glass, armor around the oil or some engine components.  Also there are a lot of vulnerable components that aren't necessarily near the surface (self-sealing fuel tanks, hydrallics, oxygen bottles, etc...).  A round that explodes 10 cm inside the skin may or may not damage some of these internal components.

Hooligan

[GRUNHERZ]

Hi

Ill take 4 times the Boom-Boom over a little loss of armor penetration, cannon shells were never meant to cut enemy planes up they were meant to blow them up. IIRC the idea of the mineshells was to penetrate the skin and explode inside the plane, destroying everything with tremendous overpressure. Sort of like a firecracker in your hand. Anyway most components of planes have no armor whatsoever. And self sealing tanks are just rubber, not armor, and would be blown up by the shell anyway. According to the ammo manual 1 mineshell has over 4 times explosive power of std. shell and if it hits a wing or tail (no armour) it will simply do much more damage. And they have a higher velocity too 785m/s  vs. 705m/s. Seems to be a better round overall. Pyro do we have mineshells in the 151, and if not could you please add them or give us your reasoning as to why you dont think they should be included?

thanks GRUNHERZ

[Hooligan]

Here is some information that Fuller picked up at the Public Records Office in London and shared with me.

The British did a lot of testing of various rounds (.303, Hispano, Mg151) and here are some of the results.

This is from:

Orfordness Research Station
Firing Trials of 20mm HS Ammunition
July 1942

When the British tested the Hispano (for example) they created mock He-111 fuselages and wings.  In one test they fired a variety of HS rounds at HE-111 wing tanks from 200 yards dead astern.   In the “simulated wing” the rounds had to penetrate a couple of layers of thin aluminum followed by a either a layer of mild steel sheet or a piece of homogeneous armor 6mm-14mm thick.  In other tests they simulated penetrating “heavy aircraft structure” by shooting the rounds through several layers of aluminum, 4 layers of mild steel and then 8mm of armor.

The British seemed to think that penetration was very very important.

They also tested the Mg151 HE and HE/I tracer rounds in.

Orfordness Research Station
Firing Trials with new type German 20mm High Explosive and High Explosive Incendiary tracer ammunition taken from Me 109 F2 aircraft.
September 1941

They fired HE and HE/I-T rounds at:

 

(a)   A Blenheim main fuel tank almost filled with petrol mounted in a Blenheim wing.
(b)   A Blenheim wing only.
(c)   Face hardened armour plate (Hadfield’s, I.T. 60), thickness 8.5mm, mounted normal to the line of fire 1 foot behind a sheet of Perspex, also normal to the line of fire.
(d)   Face hardened armour Plate (Hadfield’s, I.T. 60), of various thicknesses, attacked directly
(e)   Homogenous hard armour Plate (W. Beardmore & CO., I.T. 70) of various thicknesses, attacked directly.

The test results were that:  The HE/I ammo was pretty good at starting fires in self-sealing thanks that were not protected by armor.  Both types of rounds fused upon hitting the Perspex (canopy glass) and the resulting fragments had very little penetrating capability.  Finally the armor piercing capabilities of these rounds were unimpressive when hitting armor plate directly.

WELL DUH!  These are HE rounds.  When you compare them the Hispano AP rounds that cheerfully bore their way through 4 layers of mild steel and then a plate of face-hardened armor, their penetration is not likely to appear impressive.

From what I can tell, the Germans concentrated on using explosive content to kill aircraft.  The British (and the US) concentrated on penetrating deep within the aircraft.  Both methods clearly have their merits.  Germans used AP/I and Incendiary rounds in their standard beltings.  I’m sure they were there for a reason.

Hooligan

[minus]

holigan , well usualy the Miracle Ap round rip mi wing !!!
so what agai about pilot armor and other crap
if the plane haz armor on elevator ruder and wings  baaah then glorify the Ap round othervise a long live to a wingles  alied planes  

[GRUNHERZ]

Hi

Interesting enough the proportion of AP to HE tended to be higer in the east than in the west. More ground attack and Sturmovik! But western planes werent as strongly armored overall as the Sturmovik. Basically all a mineshell had to do was get inside the plane and blow up. But if you think how small a figher fuselage or bomber wing is, and how dense everything is inside a mineshell with over 4 times the explosive of the standard shell would be much more devestating. They didnt kill by cutting the plane up like a 50cal does, they simply blew up all the internal stuff and caused tremndous damage to the vital stressed skin surfaces, the attacked area simply fell apart.

thanks GRUNHERZ