Author Topic: Two finger salute.  (Read 885 times)

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2003, 09:07:21 AM »
Pei: During the 100 Years War against France the English longbowmen became the prime means of defeating the heavily fancied noble French cavalry

 Or so the legend goes. The role of the longbowmen is significand but often considerably overestimated. Or rather the role the longbows themselves played. It was more the whole military organisation relying on high-quality professional paid troops compared to the french system.

while the English pointed out that it was a very difficult and exacting skill which they had spent many years learning and just because the opposition couldn't get the hang of it wasn't their fault.

 As an owner of a (62-lb) logbow I can tell you it's not difficult. You just have to be a very big and strong man and practice few hours a week. It is a magnificent weapon but by no means a miracle.

Besides perhaps there should be less whingeing and the opposition should instead put some effort in and learn how to fire a longbow too.

 It was not possible for a social organisation that French had to use longbowmen. You need a strong yeomanry class to produce mercenaries and a centralised monarchy to use the professional army. French had neither.

Anyway the French instituted a campaign of cutting the first two fingers off the bow hand of any english archer they caught.

 That is largely a legend. The longbowmen were considered lowly peasants who had no place in combat. The prisoner conventions common for nobles did not apply to them, so the captured longbowmen usually had their heads cut off, not their fingers.
 Cutting two fingers would have been a very stupid thing to do. The three funger grip - not two - was common in England but many other countries used thumb grip.
 Maybe an archer would not have been able to draw 90 pounds using a thumb grip but even a 60 pound bow is quite a deadly weapon.
 

davidpt40: The only real victory longbowmen had over french cavalry is when the french dismounted in an extremely muddy field, and trudged towards english lines.

 At Agincourt practically no french were killed or even hurt with arrows. Yes, the archers did kill a lot of fench and defeated them - but they did it in a hand-to-hand combat.

 French made two major mistakes - they attacked in columns and they cut their lances just a bit shorter then the english. So when the head of the columns locked lances with the english men-at-armes and failed to push through, the most french were deep into the crown and could not even move much, let alone participate in combat. The english archers closed in on the flanks with their long knives and swords and slaughtered the french.
 Did I mention that all longbowmen were huge men and extremely strong?

"The Face of Battle" by John Keegan


 miko

Offline cpxxx

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« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2003, 09:08:41 AM »
It's true about Bowmen not being worth capturing. As a general rule at the time only noblemen were captured for ransom purposes. Ordinary footsoldiers were almost invariably slaughtered out of hand.  No quarter given or expected. But there is no reason to suppose that a bit of humanity existed and rather than kill the man his fingers were snipped off to render him useless in future.

Longbowmen were so important  that the one King banned football and made practice with the longbow compulsory. No 'Right to bears arms' in England It was a direct order from the King.  

That law was never repealed apparently so to this day training with the longbow is compulsory. A law which is disgracefully ignored. Not only that football is played all over the place in flagrant two fingered salute to the King's orders.  ;)

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2003, 12:32:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
For example, just because a bunch of people believe that water drains backwards in the southern hemisphere (as opposed to the northern hemisphere) doesn't mean that it's true.  In fact, it's quite false, one of the most ingrained urban legends I've seen.


Coriolis effect is an inertial force due to the earth's rotation discovered by the French engineer-mathematician Gustave-Gaspard Coriolis in 1835.

It is what causes the cyclonic rotation around low atmospheric pressure areas.  It does happen in a sink, but other factors such as the shape of the sink, the turbulence in the fluid, and other factors tend to overwhelm the slight effect Coriolis discovered.

In a careful experiment, in a perfectly round sink, the laminar draining of a static fluid tends to rotate oppositely than in it would in the opposite hemisphere due to the very slight 'push' given to it by the Coriolis effect.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2003, 12:41:20 PM by Holden McGroin »
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Offline miko2d

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« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2003, 12:38:41 PM »
Holden McGroin: Coriolis effect is an inertial force due to the earth's rotation...
 It is what causes the cyclonic rotation around low atmospheric pressure areas.


 Also the way the rivers undermine their banks unequally. The river flowing towards equator would behave differently in northern than the southern hempsphere.

 miko

Offline Pei

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« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2003, 04:04:37 PM »
I think some people might be taking my post too seriously. :) Dowding was on the right track.

Offline vorticon

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« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2003, 04:30:23 PM »
so now that we've debunked the myth about the bowmen...how did it REALLY come about???


(oh and the most ingraned urban myth that ve found is the "centrifugal force" one...)

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2003, 04:46:21 PM »
Ha!  I knew someone would try and defend the draining water thing, so I present the following:

http://www.snopes.com/science/coriolis.htm
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2003, 05:50:27 PM »
Quote
from snopes The twisting effect of the Coriolis force is real and does influence certain large things like the movement of air masses, but the effect is so small that it plays no role in determining the direction in which water rotates as it exits from a draining sink or toilet.


Quote
from holden It is what causes the cyclonic rotation around low atmospheric pressure areas. It does happen in a sink, but other factors such as the shape of the sink, the turbulence in the fluid, and other factors tend to overwhelm the slight effect Coriolis discovered.


Two ways of saying the same thing, although Snopes is slightly incorrect in saying small things do not effect large things.

The fact remains that the Coriolis effect does, however slightly, tend to cause rotation of fluids oppositely in the northern than the southern hemisphere.
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!