Author Topic: Intruders! 418 squadron in WW2  (Read 5880 times)

Offline Karnak

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Re: Ah
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2003, 04:49:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Scherf
One final point of course, is that in AH the Mossie has to contend with lots of fast allied fighters, when in real life the only real danger it faced, apart from flak, was the 190.

That is true, though 109s are more dangerous than 190s.  The fast Allied fighters have always been the reason I thought the Mossie had the most trouble in AH.  Still, even with the Allied fighters an undamped Mossie in 1943 was among the fastest aircraft.

It is also true that in WWII a 109 was most likely a 109G-6 and a 109 was most likely a 190A whereas in AH a 109 is most likely a 109G-10 and a 190 is most likely a 190D-9.  A Mosquito without exhaust dampers will out run a 190A, but not a 190D. It will come closer to pacing a 109G-6/AS than a 109G-10 and will outrun a 109G-2 or G-6.
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Offline Scherf

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Fastest
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2003, 08:49:40 PM »
Hi again:

I believe the Mossie's claim to being "the fastest aircraft of its day" was based on a series of tests done (going from memory here, got the details at home) at Boscombe Down. The Mosquito with (again, memory!) Merlin 66s was clocked at 427 mph, faster than the P-51 and P-47 which were tested subsequently by the same authority.

Incidentally, the airframe used for this test was the prototype, W4050, which can still be seen today at the Mosquito Museum at Salisbury Hall.

The late-war mossie bombers actually dispensed with the flame dampers in favour of ejector-type exhausts, the belief being that the increased speed was more valuable than the reduced visibility offered by the dampers.

Cheers,

Scherf
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Replicant

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Re: Fastest
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2003, 12:15:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Scherf
Hi again:

I believe the Mossie's claim to being "the fastest aircraft of its day" was based on a series of tests done (going from memory here, got the details at home) at Boscombe Down. The Mosquito with (again, memory!) Merlin 66s was clocked at 427 mph, faster than the P-51 and P-47 which were tested subsequently by the same authority.

Incidentally, the airframe used for this test was the prototype, W4050, which can still be seen today at the Mosquito Museum at Salisbury Hall.

The late-war mossie bombers actually dispensed with the flame dampers in favour of ejector-type exhausts, the belief being that the increased speed was more valuable than the reduced visibility offered by the dampers.

Cheers,

Scherf


The Prototype was much lighter than the FB-VI that we have in AH.
NEXX

Offline 214thCavalier

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Intruders! 418 squadron in WW2
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2003, 02:24:41 PM »
More Mossie stuff.

A pilot's view of the Mosquito Mk VI FB by Jimmy Gill. First published by the Mosquito Museum Newsletter on the

50th Anniversary of the first flight of the Mosquito (by Geoffrey de Havilland at Salisbury Hall on 25 November

1940).
   
 
 1. Initiation

When converting to the Mosquito from single-seat Merlin-engined aircraft the immediate thought was that the Mosquito

was too big and too heavy to fly in similar roles and should never have been allowed. However, a few sessions in a

T3 accompanied by a 'true believer' started the process of convincing yet another doubter. To be told that "this

aircraft will do all that your singles will do - and what's more they'll do it on one" - and then to have it proved

on the spot - not only made for a very impressive and telling start, but also set the nerve ends tingling in the

right direction of excitement.

2. The Next Stage

Transfer to the Mk VI FB, however, was the ultimate experience. With the possible exception of a few bad habits -

and even those evaporated during the first 50 or so hours of flying - here was the aircraft. It had all the controls

necessary to make it do what the pilot wanted, at an early stage and progressively. It inspired the pilot to greater

confidence in his ability to extract its full potential. On the one hand it was sufficiently docile to ease the

flying of it but on the other it could impose significant penalties for laxity, abuse or blatant over-confidence.

The line between these two conditions needed to be learned, recognised, and thoroughly understood at the earliest

possible stage. Stick control helped to make it exceptionally manoeuvrable up to medium altitudes and particularly

so at ultra-low level where good speed into wind and down sun made its unnaturally quiet approach even more

difficult to detect.

3. The Armament

A large well-tailored stick (cannily cranked to cause the pilot's position to conform with the contour of the

fuselage) bound with raw hemp was truly a man's stick and right-hand on, was surrounded by a cluster of controls all

within easy reach of fingers/thumb on the same hand - transmit button, 4 x .303 Brownings (in the nose), 8 x RPs

(under-wing) with 25 lb or 60 lb heads, 4 x 500 lb bombs (in the enclosed bomb-bay) and a large hooked trigger for 4

x 20 mm cannon (in the forward fuselage) which was operated by the right fore-finger. This concentration of

potential destructive power spawned a flow like an adrenalin of liquid invincibility into the blood stream. An acrid

tang in the nostrils via the oxygen mask of burnt cordite fumes seeping up into the cockpit from the forward belly

after the cannon had been fired served to stimulate further the sensation of absolute power. The gun-sight was

adequate and simple enough to avoid attention being diverted unnecessarily from flying the aircraft. With

experience, bombs and RP could be aimed very accurately at low-level merely by looking straight ahead through the

flat windscreen and releasing when the relative positions looked right! This required a little practice (primitive

wax pencil lines on the inside of the windscreen helped some) but the indivisible bond between pilot and aircraft

allowed the skill to be acquired naturally - and for the most, quite quickly. Same seat/pilot head height in

relation to windscreen/cockpit was essential for consistent accuracy in these respects. The VI was a particularly

stable weapons platform and even a stoppage on an outer cannon had no adverse directional effect.

4. Crew/Aircraft Relationship

With the navigator positioned slightly to the rear of the pilot (9" or so ) but physically touching, the bond

between them was, and needed to be, exceedingly close. Problems arising internally from any loss of RT were

virtually eliminated. This same proximity however did give rise to special difficulties in the event of emergency

exit being necessary. The drill was for the navigator to move forward, turn through 90 deg facing the escape hatch

and open his legs; it was then for the pilot to move to the right and get his head firmly between the navigator's

thighs. At this point the navigator released the hatch and both went out as a 'bundle'. The drill was practised on

the ground using inflated and inverted 'L Type' dinghies to break the fall. the navigator had generally the same

field of forward vision as the pilot which reduced the use of RT between the crew and a nudge and fore-finger sign

made pinpointing much easier. Affinity of ground crew to aircraft and complement was well above the average. It was

as though the very character and nature ofthe aircraft produced and exuded an aura of indelible quality which

automatically fused the aircraft, its crew, and the ground crew together to form an indivisible whole which inspired

the performance of each contributory element to a level well above its individual 'norm'.

5. The Later Stage

The aircraft carried with it a bad reputation on several aspects such as a severe swing to port during take-off and

an unheralded stall. It seems highly probable that both were overdone, having been magnified during the process of

being handed down by those, who wittingly or otherwise, had frightened themselves by attempting too much too soon.

With experience a tactical take-off was easily possible - even off PSP - by turning left from the peri-track to

runway with plenty of starboard engine to urge the motion and when still about 25° short of runway alignment,

opening the port engine firmly and fully to check the turn. This would produce tail-up in 50-100 yards and take-off

in 4-500 yards, and enabled a 'clean' attitude to be achieved much earlier. Similarly, a tactical landing was

another worthwhile precaution at the advanced stage. On return to base, aligned with the in-use runway, into wind,

50 feet over caravan at 240 mph then hoick the aircraft into a continuous climbing turn to port, a gravity-assisted

wheels-down at the apex of the turn (about 1000 feet high and 6-800 yards radius), continuing turn under reduced

power, flaps while still turning at about 130 mph, bringing nose gently up still turning to cross runway threshold

at about 115 mph, close any small amount of remaining engine and complete an almost three-point landing. Done well,

the port main wheel would just touch whilst the starboard and tail wheels had about 6" to go. It is significant that

the aircraft could be flown safely to those limits. The main advantage of the tactical approach and landing was that

from the initial point of 50 feet above the caravan the aircraft was within the airfield circuit and had sufficient

speed to be landed no matter if one or both engines failed during the subsequent approach. The main undercarriage

was big and accounted for considerable drag when down. One of the worst possible situations a pilot could face was

the loss of an engine (especially the port) during the take-off, or, in the case of a long-winded 'airliner' type

approach, on the approach when the undercarriage was down. In this event, to overcome the drag and stay in the air

required the use of more power from the live engine (even if it had been possible to feather on the dead engine) but

the more power the greater the torque and the consequential loss of directional control. By dint of very careful and

judicious use of everything - rudder, aileron and live engine - it was possible to keep the aircraft flying (albeit

on the 'skew') until the main gear and flaps were up. On 4 Squadron this flying attitude (not to be practised) was

known as a 'skunt'. Once the aircraft was clean its performance on the live engine was more than adequate to permit

its recovery. If, however, it was ever necessary to do a wheels up landing in a paddle-bladed aircraft with the port

engine running or wind-milling, there was a fear that, unlike the slimmer de-Havilland type, the stiffer paddle

blades would not 'banana peel' on impact but would cause the prop-shaft to shear behind the reduction gear leaving

the anti-clockwise turning port propeller (looking from the front) free to cartwheel through the cockpit.

6. The Merlins

Whilst the loss of an engine during the take-off or landing was ever near the surface of the pilot's mind at these

critical stages, it rarely happened. The Merlins were all that one could wish for - powerful, reliable and 'sweet as

a nut'. They stood a lot of hammer and formed a vital part of this classic combination.

7. The Balance

The vices attributed to the Mk VI, real or imagined, were trifling when compared with the massive pre-eminence of

its design and performance. There can remain no doubt that by any standards the Mk VI FB was a most remarkable

aircraft - good pedigree, good looking, fast, long range, versatile, well armed, highly manoeuvrable, and capable of

being flown to extremely tight but safe margins. The affinity between aircraft and crew was absolute and its

excellence brought out the best in all; but like any true thoroughbred, it could be a bit temperamental with any

whom it sensed were not in full control. From a pilot's point of view - superb, well respected, and well loved. That

more of this magnificent aircraft were not retained in an airworthy state for posterity is both deplorable and

unforgivably sad.

Offline Guppy35

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Intruders! 418 squadron in WW2
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2003, 12:18:26 AM »
Took another Mossie Ranger flight tonite with the kid.  Knights getting clobbered, so we went the long way around to hit the Rooks radar just to see if we could get through and maybe cause a little trouble.  40 minutes one way on the deck.  Great fun.

The kid took a massive flak hit as the screenshot shows, losing an engine and most of his right wing.  He still managed another run on the radar station before he went down.

I made three runs before the flak got me too. 40 minutes back solo seemed like too long a trip :)  24 buildings destroyed messages and 4 gun emplacements before we were down.

Don't know that it had any impact on 'the war' but it was a fun challenge to get through without getting clobbered by fighters

Dan/Slack

« Last Edit: December 02, 2003, 12:20:46 AM by Guppy35 »
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline 2stony

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Intruders! 418 squadron in WW2
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2003, 04:26:49 PM »
Great article Furball.

I'm on the board of the NW Friends of the Aces and Jim "Lou" Luma is our ace advisor. He had five victories in the Mosquito flying for the 418 squadron as a night fighter.  Roy Grinnell is almost finished with a new print with Lou's night kill of a Me-410 as the subject matter. The print will be available to the public this coming Spring.
     All in all it's nice to hear ace's stories first hand, especially in a plane like the Mossie.

:aok

Offline Scherf

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Intruders! 418 squadron in WW2
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2003, 07:22:36 PM »
Good pics of 418 Squadron, including Lou Luma (lower left photo) are at:

http://www.rcaf.com/photographs/418squadron/photo.shtml

The pic of Russ Bannock and Bob Bruce doesn't work for me, perhaps it's getting particularly high traffic with the Dec. 6 Mosquito Symposium coming up.

One can only hope. :D

Cheers,

Scherf
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline TheManx

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Intruders! 418 squadron in WW2
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2003, 12:28:13 PM »
We had a fun mossie run last night as a squad.


Offline Scherf

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Yowee!
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2003, 04:44:11 PM »
Got an AAR Manx?

Cheers,

Scherf
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline TheManx

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Intruders! 418 squadron in WW2
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2003, 05:08:40 PM »
Wish I did, I got blasted by a Spit IX a few minutes after the engagment started with 2 scalps and had to reup to join the fight. I got back with a new Mossie popped 4 and had to return about 4 minutes after the main group landed. I do know it was at a5 and the defenders did their best to stop us. We'd hit the base prior to that in about 12 formations of those Japanese bombers I can never seem to remember the name of. So they were a little surprised to see us again in Mosquito's to say the least.

Offline SLO

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Intruders! 418 squadron in WW2
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2003, 07:39:09 AM »
woooow.....

can you imagina that...10 fuggin mossies coming at your base.

man the firepower is awesome....nice one manx:cool:

Offline Furball

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Intruders! 418 squadron in WW2
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2003, 07:44:54 AM »
lol great sortie manx & co.

Wolfala needs a slap for taking the wrong plane ;) :D
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Offline TheManx

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« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2003, 12:26:51 PM »
We started with 13, but 3 of us got smacked in the ensuing fight. Guess 13 really is an unlucky number for me and the other two.

Was fun though, and a run we'll definitelly do more of in the future.

Offline Guppy35

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Intruders! 418 squadron in WW2
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2003, 01:18:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TheManx
We started with 13, but 3 of us got smacked in the ensuing fight. Guess 13 really is an unlucky number for me and the other two.

Was fun though, and a run we'll definitelly do more of in the future.


HAH!  Manx has the Mossie addiction. :)

Now take it a step further and send your guys out in pairs on the deck from different bases and try and meet up somewhere deep in bad guy land to knock out the radar or HQ or the Gestapo prison at Amiens :)

Dan/Slack
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline TheManx

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Intruders! 418 squadron in WW2
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2003, 01:44:10 PM »
I've flown the mossie pretty much since I've been here. It's a great plane, but over the last few camps I've made more of an effort to make it a useful addition to our squad. It definitelly takes a bit of work.

Unfortunatelly our group isn't terribly well known for stratting radar factories. We generally only hit the strats of bases we're planning on owning or ones where the other team is stratting our field from. Having an enemy who has no idea where we are defeats the purpose of squad runs in my opinion.