Author Topic: Adapt MS 2004 External Views? (Read 552 times)

Halo · « **on:** November 26, 2003, 01:27:49 PM »

Would be great if Aces High II could provide external views like the excellent ones in MS Flight Simulator 2004, which are the most gorgeous and intuitive I've ever seen. They make even routine flights eyely satisfying.

MSFS2004 seems to combine the F4 and F5 views of Aces High into an easier and more comprehensive external visual involvement. Whatever view you want, 360 degrees, is right there. Real god-like empowering perspective.

Batz · « **Reply #1 on:** November 26, 2003, 01:31:07 PM »

External view should remain disabled ingame (atleast the main/ct/tod/sea etc).

I hope HT keeps it that way.

Dega · « **Reply #2 on:** November 26, 2003, 10:29:03 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Batz
External view should remain disabled ingame (atleast the main/ct/tod/sea etc).

I hope HT keeps it that way.

100% agreement on that!

Halo · « **Reply #3 on:** November 26, 2003, 11:16:24 PM »

This is not a proposal to change which arenas allow external viewing in Aces High.

It's just a suggestion for improving the scope and intuitive control of external views presently available for everything off line and only bombers on line.

jodgi · « **Reply #4 on:** November 27, 2003, 05:22:07 AM »

If you think FS has good views (I find the FS view restrictive and lacking) you should check out X-Plane.

http://www.x-plane.com

That sim has some good views. Especially the "c" view which is hard to explain in few words. I find it to be the best view I've seen. It gives a good feel for the plane's flight model (the flight modelling in XP is among the best out there, if not THE best).

Don't take my word for it...

Halo · « **Reply #5 on:** November 27, 2003, 10:17:07 AM »

Thanks, jodgi. Great link to x-plane. I've been watching that program awhile, and almost have bought it a couple times, especially for its aircraft design feature.

But it is awfully expensive, and I probably fit more in the masses targeted by MSFS2004.

I didn't like the viewing systems in previous MSFS versions, but to me this MSFS2004 version is exactly what an external viewing system ought to be.

In the same vein, I think Aces High's tailoring of views from inside cockpits is fantastic and adds immeasureably to AH's appeal and playability.

Aces High is fabulous as is, of course, but like the rest of its disciples I'd like to see it be best in every aspect of flight simulation, as impossible as that probably is for any single program.

Halo · « **Reply #6 on:** November 27, 2003, 12:07:45 PM »

Okay, got curious enough to download the demo of X-Plane. Certainly looks interesting, but MUCH more difficult to set up initially than MSFS2004.

Joystick cuts out after six minutes in demo, but way too hard to set up joystick, especially the views. MSFS2004 by comparison is a joy to use.

Initial look at c view is okay, but much prefer MSFS2004 external views.

Will explore X-Plane demo more later, but initial setup difficulty is major impediment to considering paying more than a hundred bucks for the full thing.

Frankly, any program that does not allow easy setup for such standard joysticks as the Logitech Wingman Extreme is shooting itself in the foot. Customers don't want to waste time thrashing around in such basic requirements that get overly complicated.

Halo · « **Reply #7 on:** November 27, 2003, 12:59:07 PM »

Sorry, nothing like dominating my own thread with too much chatter, but thought better clarify the MSFS2004 view I'm talking about.

It's the Spot view. Provides seamless 360-degree external views. Most immersive viewing I've ever seen in any flight simulation.

Other views are Cockpit (not as good as Aces High), Virtual Cockpit (seamless internal viewing, like the new startup mouse view in Aces High II), and Tower (usual view from tower).

Spot is much more than Chase in other simulations. It allows you to view externally from ANY angle quickly and seamlessly. Can use it as chase if you like, but also allows any angle easily, not just restricted to views from rear.

That freedom of viewing is effortlessly controlled by hat on joystick. I use joystick D2 button (Logitech Wingman Extreme) to click through the four views on MSFS2004.

Again, if Aces High could combine its superior internal cockpit views with the superior external Spot views of MSFS2004, it would have the best of all worlds.

Kweassa · « **Reply #8 on:** November 27, 2003, 03:30:21 PM »

I agree with Halo.

There could be some more work and effort put into the less important parts of the game now, as we can say the released AH1 is now complete and final. There are more subtle things than just gameplay and FMs which make up the pleasure of air combat sims!

Many times I've felt awe and jealousy at the same time watching great films made from dedicated game fans of IL2/FB series, or Fighter Ace series, or even WB3. However, I have yet to see a worthy film made by AH users, with the few precious exceptions of some films made by hblair.

While AH Film Viewer has the most user-friendly interface and simple methods to transfer game recordings into avi files(as, the Film Viewer itself outputs ahf recordings into avi), the camera walking methods and such are pretty much limited, and access and transition to various views are very hard.

Having a cinematic fly-by camera walking, such as the IL2/FB F3 view, is just one of many views I'd like to see introduced.

jodgi · « **Reply #9 on:** November 27, 2003, 05:51:25 PM »

Hmmm...
You had trouble setting up X-Plane? For me it's the other way around;)

In the end, what prevents me from enjoying MSFS is the reduced update rate of the intruments. In XP (and also in AH) the instruments are updated as fast as everything else, and allows better and more fluid control of your instrument flying.
This is a real issue for me. Having tried XP, I cannot go back to MSFS.

I'm surprised you only found the XP "c" view OK. Do this:
Get a fighter, set it up in level flight, hit the "c" key, then breakturn. This provides the classic movie shot where a wingman breaks off from the lead plane. This view has never been done in any way in any sim before.
Set up for landing and as you enter flare go to the "c" view and flare. You will get a sense of flaring that no other sim can give, since the view is "disconnected" from the plane.

BTW, you can just fly your plane through various maneuvers and then hit "." (i think). That will put you in replay mode instantly, flick through the views and use the VCR like controls to go through your flight. And try out the normal spot view with the zoom keys. After landing, go to replay mode, then fiddle a bit so that the spot view's "camera" is near the touchdown area. Now you have a film camera placed on ground that will follow the plane as it lands.

I've shown XP to many RL pilots, and the reaction is usually the same: They get a feel for flying they have never seen in a sim before and never expected (ofcourse, everybody knows of MSFS). This even without using any of the fancy views and features.
I think XP is such a good products that I don't mind rambling on about it.

I'll say it like this:
If you're interested in FLYING, X-Plane is the ticket.
MSFS is more for the AIRCRAFT enthusiasts.

Halo · « **Reply #10 on:** November 27, 2003, 08:44:32 PM »

Good summary, jodgi. X-Plane for flying and MSFS2004 for eye candy seems to be a theme in many reviews of them.

So far I have not experienced X-Plane's reputed flying excellence because the demo limits the joystick to six minutes, and I have not been able to set up my joystick to get any kind of decent feel for X-Plane. I particularly miss the wonderful hat viewing of Aces High (especially from inside the cockpit) and FS2004 (especially from outside the cockpit).

I assume the joystick control / viewing problem is my fault, so I'll keep trying to making my joystick work in X-Plane (in between longer and more pleasurable flights in Aces High and Flight Sim 2004). I like your enthusiasm for a favorite product, and that helps me stick with X-Plane instead of giving up on it.

But I'm not shelling out more than a hundred bucks for X-Plane until I'm much more impressed than I am now.

Naturally this brings another question: Is that FS2004 external viewing technique proprietary or generic by now?

jodgi · « **Reply #11 on:** November 27, 2003, 09:06:55 PM »

Maybe you could explain this fs2004 external viewing thing? I only find a normal external view where you can set the camera position with the numpad keys. Sounds like you're talking of something else. In what I can find, MSFS has nothing in external views that XP lacks.

What problems are you having with your joystick?

X-Plane is totally lacking in innovative internal views, where msfs is strong (ever tried TrackIR in virtual cockpit?).

To get a feel for the flightmodelling:
Flare a light AC.
That will tell you a lot and I expect you will feel a clear difference between the two sims.

The virtual cockpit of MSFS looks like a worldbeater on paper, but then you notice that the intruments lag is worse than (the already unbearable lag) in normal view. Such a "small" thing degrades it to mere eye candy.... IMHO

jodgi · « **Reply #12 on:** November 27, 2003, 09:11:16 PM »

As far as favourite sim is concerned...
Below follows an estimation of hours spent in flighsims, given as a ratio

Aces High 60hrs
X-Plane 1hrs

I need things to go BOOOOOOM.

Halo · « **Reply #13 on:** November 27, 2003, 10:51:36 PM »

Ah, progress comes in such small steps for me. Got my joystick working much better in X-Plane although still can't get the hat views.

In the brief few minutes before my demo 6-minutes each session expire with the joystick, yes, X-Plane does seem really smooth on the controls. Looking forward to getting more experience with that in these episodic 6-minute demo limitations.

The transparent cockpit option is also fun, gimmicky though it is. Likewise the AI flight option gave me much more time to experiment with the views after the joystick time expired.

The c viewing option (fallaway from chase plane) is good, and arrow keys provide a good 360-degree capability but much slower and not as effectively as the joystick hat does in FS2004.

I'm not sure whether X-plane supports my joystick hat. Probably does, but haven't figured how to set that yet.

I use my joystick D2 button to click through the four FS2004 views: Cockpit, Virtual Cockpit, Tower, and Spot.

Spot is what provides the stunning external views. I don't remember doing anything special to set them up. When I toggle through my joystick's D2 button to Spot, I'm outside the airplane, and moving the hat all around and up and down gives me the most smooth and impressive external views I've ever seen in any flight simulator.

It's like starring in your own aircraft movie.

Particularly fun in such things as throttling down over water and splashing your wheels now and then, hovering and landing choppers, and just generally flying around and relishing the scenery. It's the mode I fly in most for pure pleasure, especially with the gorgeous FS2004 scenery and weather.

The joystick hat is crucial to the smooth 360-degree external views so impressive in FS2004.

jodhi, I haven't tried the TrackIR in FS2004 virtual cockpit, and not sure what that is. Isn't it some kind of head control like some fighter/chopper gunsights? I like the FS2004 virtual cockpit but still prefer Aces High cockpit views.

What kind of joystick do you use? I have the Logitech Wingman Extreme. I prefer its twist rudders and hat cup (rather than pointed hat). I use mostly the hat, trigger (only in Aces High), throttle, and top four buttons rather than the two base buttons.

The point of all this still is that so far with FS2004 and X-Plane, the innovation I think would best benefit Aces High is an external viewing system like the Spot function in FS2004.

I totally agree with your flight sim ratios, jodhi. Having just gotten the X-Plane sim, I'd estimate my typical usage now will be something like Aces High 12 of every 20 hours, MSFS2004 5 hours, and X-Plane 3 hours if I decide to buy the full version and start trying to experiment with design and fly the wider ranging X-Plane options such Mars spacecraft, the Space Shuttle, X-15, B-2 and other fascinating possibilities.

To think that X-Plane is basically a one-man invention with limited help, Aces High is HiTech's genius with slightly larger staff, and Flight Sim 2004 is Microsoft collective power, we are indeed blessed with an incredible range of leading edge talent that grows stronger every year.

Chairboy · « **Reply #14 on:** November 28, 2003, 12:37:48 AM »

I just bought my 3rd version of X-Plane. It's on sale through Christmas for $50.

The X-15 is great, you can put the B-52 out over Idaho/California border and replicate a typical flight profile back to Edwards. I like landing it at LAX without atypical throttle usage, it's fun.

The Osprey is super, it's fun to take off on land and land on a CV. I often fly from Santa Monica airport (near my house) to Edwards or Van Nuys. The weather is really neat, definately an aspect of flight that's missing from AH.

It's a real kick doing re-entries with the shuttle. It's amazing how small errors multiply themselves at 15,000 miles per hour. Ever had to land a shuttle at San Francisco international because you screwed the pooch on your entry profile? I have!

Helicopter flying is good stuff, too. It's hard. I enjoy taking off from SMON and flying to Wilshire and landing on the helipad atop a business building there.

They just added Squawkbox support too, so I can fly with other people around the world and interact with air traffic control (live ATC, not AI. There are volunteers who enjoy doing ATC.)

It's worth checking out. At times, I want the eye candy that MSFS has, and the 3d internal cockpit that probably supports TrackIR, but even without those, it's a great sim.

$50 right now at x-plane.com. I'm no shill, just a fan.