Originally posted by gripen Dear Isegrim,
I have been so worried about you, where have you been?
Away. If you are very interested in the details, fetch a mail. Next question.
So lets look converted DVL Bf 109F-2 data again: Oh indeed dear gripen, let`s look at
YOUR data instead the real data...
I just keep wondering, why you only give your own "adjusted" dataset, instead of the original one recorded by DVL, and why do you keep ignoring half a dozen sources that say your way is the wrong way ? These are questions worth to think of.
At 30lbs stick force Spitfire V has better rate of roll above about 240mph IAS.Certainly, but then your maths must be a whole different than my one.
Let`s see. The NACA roll chart, which shows an actual test with Spit MkV. It shows
55 deg/sec at 280 mph w. 30 lbs stickforce You claim your converted 109F-2`s roll rate is 50 deg/sec at 30 lbs, which would be just the same, even if we would ignore that your numbers are quite dubious and underrate it`s performance by a factor of 2.5, and conflict all the independent sources already mentioned.
Well let`s see how a G-2/trop behaved according to those who flew it :
A full stick roll through 360 degrees at 460kph takes 4 to 4.5 seconds without using rudder, and needs a force of around 20 lbf.
That is
80-90 deg/sec at 285 mph w. 20 lbs stick force for the G-2.According to my, admittedly basic mathematical background, ~85 deg/sec is a higher roll rate than 55 deg/sec, and 20 lbs is less than 30 lbs.
At 50lbs stick force Spitfire V has better rate of roll below 260mph IAS and above 350mph IAS.
Clipped wing Spitfire does far better at all speeds.At least according to you, dear Gripen. I`d like you to prove that one too.. until then, it remains a claim.
One thing makes me wonder if DVL had some super human test pilots. Data sets contains points where stick force is more than 25kg (about 55lbs), that's quite alot above max force you mentioned? I mentioned (actually qouted) 40 lbs stick force maximum achievable on Spit VA, at least according to the NACA. I don`t see how the DVL comes into light, dear Gripen, after all, these are the maximum available sideway stick forces for the Spit VA, not any other plane.
I also wonder why RAE and NACA did tests on 50lbs if such force was impossible? Why RAE rated 60lbs as practical maximum? And the report on Joint Fighter Conference contains several pilots claims about higher than 50lbs stick forces?I also wonder why it is so hard for you to get over the following sentence by NACA on Spit MkV:
The pilot was able to exert a maximum of about 40 lbs on the stick. With this force, full deflection could be attained only up to about 130 miles per hour. Beyond this speed, the rapid increase in stick force near maximum deflection prevented full motion of the control stick. Only one-half of the available deflection was reached with a 40 lbs stick force at 300 miles per hour, with the result that the pb/2V obtainable at this speed was reduced to 0.04 radian, or one-half that reached at low speeds.
BTW you might like to know that the NACA chart you posted is from one of those reports I gave to Niklas. That was hardly a surprise given your previous statements, but I hardly see what that makes any different.
Oh, and I still wonder why don`t you post the
original figures of DVL, or the relavant parts (stick force, aileron deflection, aileron effectiveness and the original roll rate) at 400 mph or around... I bet others wonder about this, too.