Author Topic: restored Messerschmitt Bf 109 E4 WN 3579  (Read 20819 times)

Offline Angus

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« Reply #120 on: December 05, 2003, 04:31:56 AM »
Oh, and a Spit II, 120 lbs heavier, but boosted up to 1100 hp+ (100 octane) will go to 20K in 7 minutes smooth.
That is, if it has a CS airscrew.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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« Reply #121 on: December 05, 2003, 10:58:58 AM »
Angus,

109E had 990 PS at SL to use for climb, altough you will need to convert that to BHP (x ~0.97)... The 1000 HP+ figure you qoute is for a 1-min special WEP, and not used in climb for sure. So you have roughly about 950 BHP on the Bf 109E at SL... but don`t make much calculation based on that, as power varies to much with altitude (it`s NOT constant!!) to use that for a range of altitude. You may try to compare climb rates vs. power at a given altitude perhaps..

I will respond to Gripen later once I will have some extra time. As for the two idiots, I guess the fact they can`t post a simple URL to back up their claim makes it evident enough, and in any case they only want to flame here, so why help them in that.

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #122 on: December 05, 2003, 11:13:21 AM »
Bf109E-1/3

SL

1175hp at 2400rpm for 1 min. (433l/h)
1015hp at 2400 for 5 min. (321l/h)
950hp at 2300rpm for 30 min. (288l/h)
860hp at 2200rpm continuous (260l/h)

@ altitude

1100hp at 3.7km for 5 min. (318l/h)
1050hp at 4.1 continuous (297l/h)
1000hp at 4.5km continuous (283l/h)
975hp at 3.85 continuous (economical) (269l/h)

from L.Dv.556/3

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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« Reply #123 on: December 05, 2003, 11:21:36 AM »

Offline Angus

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« Reply #124 on: December 05, 2003, 11:39:00 AM »
hmm
Looks like the DB performs worse than I thought.
BTW, a correction,- my data was from an E-4, not E-3
Were there no power upgrades to the 109E during the BoB? At least, RR made some, the Spit II was already coming in with 100 octane levelling out at 1175 bhp if I remember right.
I wonder about the Merlins power then. I mean, were these 1030 hp available at SL for a climb with 87 oct fuel, or were there 1030 bhp through the gate only?
I am sure Gripen could help out there.
Isegrim: Do you happen to have data about the 109K, - weight and climb, - and power????
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #125 on: December 05, 2003, 12:32:03 PM »

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #126 on: December 05, 2003, 01:54:22 PM »
RAE testing of the BF109E-3

Aeroplane and Armament Establishment
Boscombe Down
10 June 1940

Messerschmidt 109 Fighter
Brief Handling Trials

Conclusions

.......In general flying qualities the aeroplane is inferior to both the Spitfire and the Hurricane at all speeds and in all conditions of flight. It is much inferior at speeds in excess of 250 m.p.h. and at 400 m.p.h. recovery from a dive is difficult because of the heaviness of the elevator. This heaviness of the elevator makes all manoeuvres in the looping plane above 250 m.p.h. difficult including steep climbing turns. No difference was experienced between climbing turns to the right and left. It does not possess the control which allows of good quality flying and this is particularly noticeable in acrobatics.

Royal Aircraft Establishment at Farnborough
June 1940
Spitfire IA K.9791 with Rotol constant speed propeller
Me 109E-3 Werk-Nr 1304

Comparitive trials between the Me 109E-3 and "Rotol" Spitfire IA

1. The trial commenced with the two aircraft taking off together, with the Spitfire slightly behind and using +6 1/4 lb boost and 3,000 rpm.

2. When fully airborne, the pilot of the Spitfire reduced his revolutions to 2,650 rpm and was then able to overtake and outclimb the Me 109. At 4,000 ft, the Spitfire pilot was 1,000 feet above the Me 109, from which position he was able to get on its tail, and remain there within effective range despite all efforts of the pilot of the Me 109 to shake him off.

3. The Spitfire then allowed the Me 109 to get on to his tail and attempted to shake him off this he found quite easy owing to the superior manoeuvrability of his aircraft, particularly in the looping plane and at low speeds between 100 and 140 mph. By executing a steep turn just above stalling speed, he ultimately got back into a position on the tail of the Me 109.

4. Another effective form of evasion with the Spitfire was found to be a steep, climbing spiral at 120 mph, using +6 1/4 boost and 2,650 rpm; in this manoeuvre, the Spitfire gained rapidly on the ME 109, eventually allowing the pilot to execute a half roll, on to the tail of his opponent.

5. Comparitive speed trials were then carried out, and the Spitfire proved to be considerably the faster of the two, both in acceleration and straight and level flight, without having to make use of the emergency +12 boost. During diving trials, the Spitfire pilot found that, by engageing fully coarse pitch and using -2lbs boost, his aircraft was superior to the Me 109.

Royal Aircraft Establishment, Farnborough
September 1940
Messerschmitt Me.109.
Handling and Manoeuvrability Tests

Conclusions

.......Take off is fairly straightforward. Landing is difficult until the pilot gets used to the aeroplane.

.......Longitudinally the aeroplane is too stable for a fighter. There is a large change in directional trim with speed. No rudder trimmer is fitted; lack of this is severely felt at high speeds, and limits a pilot's ability to turn left when diving.

.......Aileron snatching occurs as the slots open. All three controls are far too heavy at high speeds. Aerobatics are difficult.

.......The Me 109 is inferior as a fighter to the Hurricane or Spitfire. Its manoeuvrability at high speeds is seriously curtailed by the heaviness of the controls, while its high wing loading causes it to stall readily under high normal accelerations and results in a poor turning circle.

.......At 400 m.p.h a pilot, exerting all his strength, can only apply 1/5 aileron, thereby banking 45 deg. in about 4 secs. From the results Kb2 for the Me 109 ailerons were estimated to be -0.145.

.......The minimum radius of turn without height loss at 12,000 ft., full throttle, is calculated as 885 ft. on the Me 109 compared with 696 ft. on the Spitfire.


other info

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit109turn.gif
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/bank45.gif
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit109turn18.gif

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spittest.html

Offline GScholz

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« Reply #127 on: December 05, 2003, 05:52:59 PM »
"In general flying qualities the aeroplane [109] is inferior to both the Spitfire and the Hurricane at all speeds and in all conditions of flight."

This conclusion alone invalidates the entire report. It is either bias, propaganda or incompetence in flying the 109.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Furball

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« Reply #128 on: December 05, 2003, 06:15:12 PM »
yer all dweebs for getting so worked up over it.
I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know.
-Cicero

-- The Blue Knights --

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #129 on: December 05, 2003, 07:41:33 PM »
You forgot the fourth possibility... which is that the Bf109E was inferior to the Hurricane and Spitfire at all speeds and all conditions of flight.

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #130 on: December 05, 2003, 07:51:54 PM »
Well since Urchin has added his knotted panties to the laundry ... apparently because someone dared to impune the righteous and awesome abilities of the 109 .... then this thread is pretty damned ok. :D

Yay video games. Nazis sucked at everything anyway. :lol

Offline Angus

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« Reply #131 on: December 05, 2003, 08:16:52 PM »
Hello again...thread.
I've seen that biased report before. Well, biased normally, for the given time it was done. Just again though, I wish we had german comparison trials for the same.
However, something in that report shook up my merory a bit. Heavy elevators and the effects of those in combat it was.
Now since everybody has mentioned the importance of ailerons in combat, how about the response of ailerons.
I remember an article about the vices of the 109, very much stating its elevators heaviness as uncomfortable and insufficient.
Are elevators less important than ailerons? Well, once at high speed, and ALSO with heavy ailerons, elevators might as well be crucial.
I have seen some remarks that pulling 109's into a high speed-heavy-G-maneuver was very tough, - earlier models presumably being harder on the pilot.
Charlie Brown (if anyone remembers the start of this thread) also remarks the 109 being rather easy to loop, and the minimum looping speed at 280 mph. Hmmm 280 MPH?
From that, - easy at it is, it seems to me that the Emil, regardless of roll rate has a very limited pitch/loop range. The Spitfire will definately  loop at 180 mph, - entering a loop at a typical 300 mph, it will loop twice consecutively. At very high speed, when the 109 pilot will have to pull the stick with a lot of force, the Spit pilot will still do the same pitch single-handedly. Actually too easily, so later variants of Spits had their elevator control weighted-up according to speed in order to prevent overcontrolling.
Anyway, something also of interest, - pitch control in the turn, - at high speeds, plane rolled almost to 90 degrees, stick needs to be pulled as much as possible, - where would the 109 pilot be in the first seconds compared to the Spitty jock? just wondering.....any figures of instantaneous turns?.
Maybe that's where the myth of Spits out-turning 109's so easily comes from. The first seconds....
Just wondering..
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline hogenbor

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« Reply #132 on: December 06, 2003, 08:08:08 AM »
There are (British) kill ratios of the Bf109 against both the Spitfire and the Hurricane, throughout the BoB.

Regardless of the discussion here, it at least proves that the Bf109 was capable of shooting down quite a large number of Spitfires.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #133 on: December 06, 2003, 08:37:01 AM »
Uhmm  I think its pretty clear both were competitive fighters. I think this discussion of which wing was 5% more efficent or whatnot is really pointless and wierd...

Plus everyone knows Bf109 is much meaner than a spit, its downright evil in fact.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #134 on: December 06, 2003, 03:21:40 PM »
Would be nice to know if one managed to do 300% more loops than the other, or swiftly do a high break at high speed with twice the agility. Really.....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)