Author Topic: Bob Johnson's Johnson  (Read 1437 times)

Offline Arlo

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Bob Johnson's Johnson
« on: November 28, 2003, 07:39:19 PM »
Has an intimidating effect on most hardcore Luftwaffe fans. :D

WW ... how DARE you even come close to suggesting that the Luftwaffe was beaten by better ANYTHING ... be it plane or pilot! Well ... you may get away with suggesting logistics and production. ShruG :lol

One thing's for sure .... the more real life WWII fighter pilots pass on .... the more experts who know what really happened are born. :eek:

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2003, 02:48:27 AM »
SPEW !
LOL

Offline HoHun

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Re: Bob Johnson's Johnson
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2003, 06:18:38 AM »
Hi Arlo,

>One thing's for sure .... the more real life WWII fighter pilots pass on .... the more experts who know what really happened are born. :eek:

Afraid to name horse and rider, Arlo?

Here's the Johnson quote:

Quote

CCJ: 72 inches!? Did you ever take note of your airspeed during one of those runs?

RSJ: Of course.

CCJ: And....... how fast did it go?

RSJ: I've seen just over 300 at altitude.

CCJ: 300 indicated?

RSJ: Yes.

CCJ: What was your altitude?

RSJ: I guess it was right around 32,000 feet.

CCJ: Geez, that’s well over 450 mph!

RSJ: Oh, I figure closer to 470.


My comments:

- 72" Hg at 32000 ft are unobtainable by the P-47D judging from the reference data both Widewing and I have found. In fact, even 64" Hg are only obtainable up to around 27000 - 28000 ft.

- 300 mph CAS at 32000 ft don't equal 470 mph TAS as stated by Johnson, but (including compressibility correction) a stunning 489 mph. That's well above the top speeds of even the P-47M and N as quoted by Widewing, and matches XP-47J performance.

Quite obviously, Johnson made a mistake recalling the exact altitude at which his P-47 reached its top speed.

I don't think this a particularly exciting observation. If it harms your general warm-and-fuzzy feeling about the P-47 - well, not my fault, really.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline mos

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« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2003, 11:25:51 AM »
Real-life rarely matches theoreticals.

Offline Arlo

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Re: Re: Bob Johnson's Johnson
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2003, 04:49:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun

Afraid to name horse and rider, Arlo?

 


*ShruG* If you feel it applies feel free to be offended. As for the rest, you can pull out every chart, book, reference, comic and trading card you got but you still weren't there and he was. I'm sure you can dig up some first hand quotes from the Luftwaffe vantage point and fire them back. Then someone who finds them biased can talk about how biased and mistaken they were in return. Of course ... there's only one side that really has a reason to have sour grapes about the past. ;)

Keep crunching! :D

Offline HoHun

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Re: Re: Re: Bob Johnson's Johnson
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2003, 06:24:04 PM »
Hi Arlo,

>*ShruG* If you feel it applies feel free to be offended. As for the rest, you can pull out every chart, book, reference, comic and trading card you got but you still weren't there and he was.

So what? I'm still right, and he's still wrong.

Your comments are ignorant, and your intent is character assasination.

You're a coward, Arlo. You're throwing dirt because you can't compete on an intellectual level.

If you're interested in the truth, write a polite email to Hitech and ask him about his opinion on a 470 mph TAS @ 32000 ft P-47D.

If you're interested in sustaining your self-deception, don't write to Hitech but keep writing insulting posts here.

I'm going to put you on my ignore filter now, so if you actually write to Hitech, hear his opinion and want to apologize, you're going to have to forward your apology via a third person.

(Adding that paragraph might have been a waste of time, but if you should be a decent guy after all, I'm always ready to give you a second chance.)

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2003, 07:05:27 PM »
Ignore list? How nice of you. Then you won't be seeing the following:

Give me a second chance? You're the anal fruitcake with a Third Reich axe to grind. And your response is indicative of someone who needs to get a life. ;)

Have a nice day. :D

Offline Puck

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« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2003, 08:40:14 PM »
For the "new" release of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid they interviewed all the principle actors and the director.  Paul Newman prefaced his interview by saying he got together with his flight crew from WWII recently, and NONE of them could agree on ANYTHING that happened during the war.

Memory is like that.  I've run into that myself chatting with some of my old cohorts from merely twenty years ago.

The point is don't necessarily take everything said by WWII vets who "were there" at face value.  Even when I get my dad talking I keep in mind the distance back he is recalling his stories.  This doesn't mean they're lying, it means memory isn't an impartial observer.

Just my two centavos.
//c coad  c coad run  run coad run
main (){char _[]={"S~||(iuv{nkx%K9Y$hzhhd\x0c"},__
,___=1;for(__=___>>___;__<((___<<___<<___<<___<<___
)+(___<<___<<___<<___)-___);__+=___)putchar((_[__
])+(__/((___<<___)+___))-((___&

Offline F4UDOA

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« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2003, 09:17:13 PM »
I am not even going to pretend to take sides in this arguement. The last time I joined someone elses arguement I couldn't get out. So I will just post this and let everyone draw their own conclusions.

BTW, this document is from the Vought archives. Manifold pressures and speeds are listed. The F4U-3 used the same Turbo Superchargers and the same R2800C block as the P-47D. The F4U-1 did have a slightly lower Cdo than the P-47. At 68" of MAP producing 2800HP it reached 486MPH at 30K. At 73"MAP it reached 3,000HP and 487MPH at 27K but more importantly at 63" and 2600HP it hit 480MPH at 32,000FT.

 http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/F4U-3MSW.pdf
« Last Edit: November 29, 2003, 09:30:31 PM by F4UDOA »

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2003, 09:27:16 PM »
Not the point, Puck.

Henning's strongly implied viewpoint that his collection and interpretation of charts, graphs and data relating to his favorite aircraft (and perhaps, to some degree, of their opposing aircraft) constitutes his being more of an authority on any and all WWII aircraft (or even just his favorite ones) than the pilots who flew/flew against them ... to the point of disregarding statements made by those pilots, out of hand, when they don't support his own prejudiced assessment ... reflects both bias and delusion. And his responses in this thread alone reveal a defensiveness that appears to be motivated by an insecurity that he'd probably be hard-pressed to admit.

It's generally a dead give-away when the "expert viewpoint" by a second or third-hand "authority" in one of these threads attack the sources of the other second or third-hand "authority" without the slightest hint of the ability to concede to any portion of the other party's viewpoint.

In other words .... I'm as impressed with Henning's "expertise" in pulling up charts and quoting statistical data as I am with anyone else's. Which is several shades shy of my being impressed by a conversation with a real WWII veteran pilot describing his experiences to the best of his ability.

And if Henning ... or anyone else .... can't handle that .... then too bad. I hope they get over it but I won't be too distraught if they don't. :D
« Last Edit: November 29, 2003, 09:38:25 PM by Arlo »

Offline davidpt40

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« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2003, 09:46:22 PM »
In the P47D training film, an overspeed light for the turbo-charger would come on if the engine was at too high of a speed above a certain altitude.

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2003, 02:00:10 AM »
Hi F4UDOA,

Thanks for presenting facts! :-)

The document you posted shows an R-2800 engine that can't obtain 72" Hg at 32000 ft, confirming my point.

The F4U-3's airframe his less drag than the P-47D's. From another page of the same document, the P-47D at sea level achieves 354 mph @ 2600 HP, while the F4U-3 achieves 378 mph @ 2800 HP, which translates into 368  mph at equivalent power to the P-47D.

The P-47D's extra drag is enough to prevent it from reaching 470 mph @ 32500 ft even with the same engine as the F4U-3, again confirming my point.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2003, 03:48:47 AM »
I, for one, would like to see the official, verified, scientifically-modeled, unbiased, confirmed by former German scientists brought over to assist the U.S. with it's rocket program after the war wind-tunnel comparisons of the two airframes mentioned to see how much horsepower the F4U had over the P-47 due to a better streamlined airframe. But since Henning has conveniently filtered me I suppose it's up to someone else to challenge him to produce or stuff a sock in it.

Actually .... until Henning (or anyone else, for that matter) can confirm that he, himself has tested the envelope in these planes, I could really care less how much paper he does or doesn't throw at an argument ... especially when he picks and chooses what published opinions (of the pilots who were really there) are accurate and which "were mistaken" (based on Henning's unimpeachable expertise). I can pick and choose myownself without all the superfluous addenda thrown in "to back it up." Which is all this thread variant was about. ;) :D
« Last Edit: November 30, 2003, 01:25:51 PM by Arlo »

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2003, 12:17:38 PM »
A couple of points.

When Johnson said during my interview that he saw 300 mph IAS at 32,000 ft, I immediately compared that to the P-38 (which I been extensively researching). At 30k and 300 mph IAS, the P-38 would have been well into compressibility. Estimating in my mind, I figured that at 32k, 300 mph IAS is about 455 mph. I responded to Bob with "That's well above 450 mph". Bob then said, "Closer to 470."

I thought a speed just above 450 mph was reasonable, and I still think that it is. And believe me, there was nothing that Johnson was going to encounter in December of 1943 that could get within 60 mph of his Jug at altitude anyway.

After reviewing various data sheets for the R-2800-21 and -59, as well as power and speed charts for the above, I conclude that Henning isn't really out of line here, 32,000 feet is really pushing the limits to pull 72" of MAP with a "B" series engine and related turbo.

When I examine the power curve for the P-47M-1-RE, I see that it could reach 475 mph at 32,600 feet, pulling 72" Hg. However, the P-47M used the -57 "C" series engine and the more efficient CH-3 turbo. This turbo provided greater boost pressure without overspeeding. According to G.E., the C-21 and C-23 turbos suffer serious efficiency problems at 22,000 RPM, as well as great risk of overheating, which will eventually cause the lubricating oil to coke, which in turn works like a lapping compound that will rapidly destroy the bearings. This is why the turbos (C-21 and C-23)were regulated to 18,250 RPM in normal use, it provided a adequate cushion for limited overspeed. The Turbo impeller/compressor assembly could handle rotational speeds up to 26,000 RPM, but due to the backpressure caused by their inherent inefficiency, boost pressure would drop dramatically, and temperature would rise dangerously within the turbo housing. This would eventually lead to heat related failure as described above. Catastrophic failure could seriously damage the airplane and cause it to become unflyable. It is interesting to note that Republic did design in more than enough duct capacity for even the CH-3 turbo.

Now about comparing drag between the P-47D/N and F4U-3. In terms of drag coefficient, the P-47D-25 thru M is lower than the the F4U-1D. The Jug comes in at .0235 and the Corsair at .0267. The F4U-3 was built from the F4U-1A, which didn't have the rocket stubs. However, the F4U-3 did incorporate a large intake scoop under the fuselage (as engine induction air was no longer taken in from the inboard leading edge openings). So, I imagine drag was probably consistant with the F4U-1D.

It may be interesting to note that the P-47B came in at .0213, even lower than the P-39N! Adding the under wing pylons and bubble canopy bumped drag up. Johnson's Jug had neither, so it should be somewhere between the P-47B (which lacked even the belly shackles) and the P-47D-25. Probably close to .0218 give or take a tiny bit. That will certainly aid in relation to maximum speed. Comparing flat plate area using a Cdo for the P-47D-5 of .0218, the F4U-1D calculates at 8.58 sq/ft, the P-47D-5-RE at 6.54 sq/ft. (Drag data from NACA L5A30 and ACTR 4677). Considering the size of the Thunderbolt, and the diameter of the engine, its Cdo is remarkably low.

For comparison's sake, the P-51D comes in at .0176, the P-63A at .0203 and the P-40E at .0242.

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: November 30, 2003, 12:22:03 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Nomak

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« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2003, 09:05:13 AM »
Its a good thing Bob Johnson never saw hennings charts......He would have never got a kill  in his inferior US aircraft  :rofl