Author Topic: Whadya y'all make of this? 'Explosive' ammo?  (Read 729 times)

Offline Saurdaukar

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Whadya y'all make of this? 'Explosive' ammo?
« on: December 02, 2003, 10:57:50 AM »
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-2426405.php

Interesting stuff.  Dont see how it can be 'legal' for combat usage though.

Offline Octavius

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Whadya y'all make of this? 'Explosive' ammo?
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2003, 11:11:05 AM »
Amazing.  That article doesn't reveal that much scientific data.  I'd like to see an explanation for this:
Quote
The frangible APLP ammo will bore through steel and other hard targets but will not pass through a human torso, an eight-inch-thick block of artist’s clay or even several layers of drywall. Instead of passing through a body, it shatters, creating “untreatable wounds.”
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^ AND it works more effectively at higher temperatures (human flesh)?  Ballistics rule.


Why not test it?  Because of course, it interferes with projects and other contracts we already have in place... a money issue.

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Some supporters of RBCD ammunition suggest SOCom officials may be reluctant to test the ammo because it threatens “in-house” weapons and ammunition programs underway at the command.
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And another question... who is this Ben Thomas guy and what was he doing in Iraq with an M4 and not in the service?  Is he some sort of retired consultant?
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Offline GtoRA2

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Whadya y'all make of this? 'Explosive' ammo?
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2003, 11:29:19 AM »
Saur
 You talking about the no dum dum **** in the geneva conventions?

That part is out dated I think and we should use the best ammo we can for our troops.

Offline miko2d

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Re: Whadya y'all make of this? 'Explosive' ammo?
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2003, 11:48:29 AM »
Saurdaukar: Interesting stuff.  Dont see how it can be 'legal' for combat usage though.

 Regular 5.56 ammo fragments into dozens of pieces at velocities above 2600fps - at distances below approximately 200 yards if shot from a 20-inch barrel.  It leaves devastating wounds that are very hard or impossible to treat.



 There is nothing illegal about US using any kind of bullets because it was never a party to any conventions limiting the bullet design.

see http://www.ammo-oracle.com

Octavius: That article doesn't reveal that much scientific data. I'd like to see an explanation for this:

 While I am not familiar with this praticular round, I can explain how the standard round works. I believe the mechanism must be similar.
 You see, the shape of a military bullet makes it aerodynamically unstable - it tends to turn rear-end forward in flight. The proper sping of a bullet counteracts that tendency in air.
 As soon as the bullet enters some denser tissue, the spin is not sufficient to keep it stabilised and it flips over. If the speed is sufficient, at about 3-4 inches deep in human flesh when it is travelling sidewise, the stress becomes too great and it breaks appart into two pieces that further disintegrate.
 Easy disintegration is helped by weak thin copper jacket, canellure and internal bullet design.

 So a bullet can easily be able to penetrate 1/4 inches of steel but desintegrate within 5 inches of tissue or a drywall.

 Hunting bullets are usually round-nosed and they have much less tendency to flip over. Also, the bullets with copper-washed steel jacket or without canellure may not fragment as readily as the standard mill-spec rounds.


GtoRA2: That part is out dated I think and we should use the best ammo we can for our troops.

 At some point the bad guys will start using the same ammo that we do instead of clean prenetrating AK-47 rounds. At that point our statistics of 1 dead per 100 wounded will get much worse.

 miko
« Last Edit: December 02, 2003, 12:14:03 PM by miko2d »

Offline Creamo

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Whadya y'all make of this? 'Explosive' ammo?
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2003, 11:52:38 AM »
Do you actually believe yourself? Just wondering.

Offline GtoRA2

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Whadya y'all make of this? 'Explosive' ammo?
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2003, 11:58:27 AM »
Creamo
 Who are you talking to?

Offline Creamo

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Whadya y'all make of this? 'Explosive' ammo?
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2003, 12:04:44 PM »
Captain Analytical of course.

 Boredom powers activate! Form of a 4 paragraph line of opinion stated as if fact.

Offline Maverick

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Whadya y'all make of this? 'Explosive' ammo?
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2003, 12:06:46 PM »
Another example of THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!! :rolleyes:
DEFINITION OF A VETERAN
A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
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Offline Vermillion

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Whadya y'all make of this? 'Explosive' ammo?
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2003, 12:07:14 PM »
Quote
And another question... who is this Ben Thomas guy and what was he doing in Iraq with an M4 and not in the service? Is he some sort of retired consultant?


You might say that.  My best guess is that he is what is commonly called on CNN these days as a "CIA Contract Employee" or "CIA Paramilitary Personnel".  Usually these guys are ex-special forces working for the CIA but are officially employed by a third party company.

Offline Animal

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Whadya y'all make of this? 'Explosive' ammo?
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2003, 12:20:50 PM »
LOL these guys are civilians traveling around Iraq like its a safari.

Granted, they may be attacking hostile Iraquies, but its still a little odd.

How does the .gov allow for armed american civilians to roam around a hot battelground?

-edit-
Verm may have answered my question, but its still a little wacky.

Offline miko2d

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Whadya y'all make of this? 'Explosive' ammo?
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2003, 12:25:58 PM »
M855 (SS-109) is a 62 grain 5.56 bullet.
 It differs from M193 55 grain bullet by being longer, less stable and having a "compound" core, with a lead base topped by a steel penetrator.
 This bullet requires faster rifling twist to be properly stabilized - at least 1 in 9.

Quote
the SS-109 bullet was proven to have better penetration of the then-current-issue steel helmet at 600m than the M80 "ball" ammo fired by the M60.  The M80 ammo was not able to penetrate both sides of the helmet at that distance; the SS-109 bullet could.


 Obviously, if there was a head inside the helmet, the bullet would have flipped and desintegrated inside the brain and not penetrated the rear side of the helmet.

 So if you shoot M855 through two metal plates separated by 12 inches, it will likely punch through both of them.
 If you shoot it lengthwise through a milk carton filled with meat, only tiny pieces will come out of the rear end that will have very little further penetration.

 miko

Offline FUNKED1

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Whadya y'all make of this? 'Explosive' ammo?
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2003, 12:32:23 PM »
Another term for these guys is OGA - Other Government Agency.  Some of them are working for the CIA and others are providing security for US civilian agencies who have people in Iraq.  Good to hear they are kicking some ass.  Nice shot man.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2003, 12:34:35 PM by FUNKED1 »

Offline capt. apathy

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Whadya y'all make of this? 'Explosive' ammo?
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2003, 12:37:59 PM »
Quote
Hunting bullets are usually round-nosed and they have much less tendency to flip over.


almost all hunting rounds use either spire of semi-spire point bullets.

round-nose are ussually just used for rifles with tubular magazines (like most 30-30's),  not for any sort of advantage but because loading spire-point bullets in a tubular magazine will get you killed or at least hurting.

Offline miko2d

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Whadya y'all make of this? 'Explosive' ammo?
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2003, 01:18:21 PM »
True. I should have said "some hunting rounds and older military ammunition". I am much more fluent in military ammo than in hunting firearms.

 The advantage of the round-nosed bullets is increased stability, which requires less radical spin, more tolerance for different bullet weights, sizes and loads. Also less wear and stress on the barrel.

 miko

Offline RTR

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Whadya y'all make of this? 'Explosive' ammo?
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2003, 01:30:14 PM »
hmmm...I always thought  it was better to wound than kill.
Just for the simple reason that by wounding you have taken 2 out of the fight (one to look after the wounded).

However, in this day and age of conflict, it rarely seems to be an issue as the battlefield is hard to define, and the enemy doesn't always seem to conform to what used to be typical warfare practices. (IE caring for the wounded).

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