Author Topic: Miko  (Read 432 times)

Offline ravells

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Miko
« on: December 11, 2003, 12:46:00 PM »
I thought this deserved a new post, Miko.

Let's kick off with the 'Unfair Contract Terms Act'.  This type of legislation exists pretty in pretty much all common law countries.

The principles of contractual law are based on the importance of the freedom of contract. Thus, traditionally, the State did not intervene in mutually agreed upon expressions of private parties unless the intentions of such parties were clearly prohibited by law or were contrary to public policy.

However, due to the injustice caused by those with greater bargaining power taking advantage of individual consumers, the State considers it necessary to provide guidelines for the courts in evaluating whether any terms found within a contract are unfair, and to give the courts the power to intervene in contractual arrangements between parties, by voiding or limiting any unfair terms that courts find to exist in such arrangements.

Hence, the Unfair Contract Terms Act was implemented, allowing parties to refer to the courts for a decision as to whether terms within a contract are unfair, that is whether the terms burden one party while giving excessive advantage to the other party, and therefore subject to limitation or voidance.

What does this mean in practice?

Examples of unfair terms would include:

Companies involved in commercial transport excluding their liability for injury or death to passengers caused by the company's negligence.

Contractual terms providing for extortionate interest rates in the event of default of instalment payments by the consumer.

Contractual terms providing that a company selling a product has no liability to the customer whatsoever if the product is not of satisfactory quality (or if the product causes damage through some inherent defect).

Now what possible problem could you have with the Unfair Contract Terms Act?

Ravs

Offline miko2d

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Re: Miko
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2003, 02:47:30 PM »
OK, ravells - let's get to it.

 I assume you are not refering to fraud - which is illegal and should be prosecuted by the state, but by contract by consenting informed adults.

'Unfair Contract Terms Act' "due to the injustice"

 "Unfair" and "injustice" mean "whatever I, the mighty politician, do not like", right? Which is meaningless but maybe you have a better definition that is objective - meaning it does not depend on arbitrary decision of an individual. After all that is what "rule of law" is about as opposed to rule of persons - clear immutable definitions not subject to someone's whim.

 In my opinion "unfair" and "unjust" are synonimous with coerced. Any coerced limitation of rights is unfair and unjust.

 Whenever two sides engage in a voluntary contract, for each side it is the best choice or action and denying them such right would cause both of them into the worse situation.
 Usually it is the small guy who is more desperate and is hurt the most.

Companies involved in commercial transport excluding their liability for injury or death to passengers caused by the company's negligence.

 As soon as such exclusion (about negligence, not intentional harm) is specified in the contract terms, that affects the value/attractiveness of the contract to the consumer.

 The price for the service would naturally go down due to competition and the customer would save money with which he would be free to[/b]:
 - buy a service upgrade
 - go to a competitor providing such an in/assurance for higher price reflecting its cost or
 - buy private insurance or
 - make private security arrangements (swimming lessons, personal parachute, personal airbag, rope ladder, firearm, antivenom, water purifier, etc.)
 - use the money to address a more urgent perceived need or risk (medicine, food)
 - or pocket/invest the saved money and assume the risks himself.

 By making such insurance mandatory - which is what the law causes, the cost of the service and the price of the service to the consumer is driven up and discretion is denied to him. The consumer loses both money and freedom.

 The producer benefits from legislation because instead of selling insurance upgrate only to the customers willing to buy it, he can now sell it to all of them, whether they want it or not!
 
Contractual terms providing for extortionate interest rates in the event of default of instalment payments by the consumer.

 Makes a desperate poor person not being able to obtain any credit because the government denies him the right to offer attractive terms to the lender.

 Usually it is combined with the law denying to all the lenders a righ to refuse service - thus making the other customers of the lenders[/i] subcidise the bad credit risk customers.

Contractual terms providing that a company selling a product has no liability to the customer whatsoever if the product is not of satisfactory quality (or if the product causes damage through some inherent defect).

 Same as the service defects. Customers are denied a choice whether to buy the less-reliable product for less money or to pay more for brand name and warranty. They can only buy the expensive products, so many get priced out of the market entirely. If the worst car allowed to be bought was a Caddilac, the poor people would not be driving better cars - they would be not driving any cars.

 Anybody ever tried to sell you an overpriced extended warranty that makes more profit than the good itself? Next time someone tries to hoist one on you, why don't you suggest him to lobby the government to make it mandatory for you to buy it! :)
 
Now what possible problem could you have with the Unfair Contract Terms Act?

 It implies that a government bureaucrat can make a better one-size-fits-all decisions than every customer who can evaluate risks, costs and benefits specific to his situation.

 As the quality of services/goods is mandated by law to be artificially higher, many of the customers get priced out of the market entirely.
 Business becomes more expensive, paperwork and compliance with government regulation more burdensome and it is getting harder for a newcomer to open a low-end business to eventually provide competition to the big established businesses.
 With less competition, the prices for services do not drop as fast, quality does not increases as fast. No wonder big business loves government "pro-consumer" regulations - it keeps upstart competitors away.
 'Unfair Contract Terms Act' is an anti-competitive scam - of the big business using the government power of coercion and corrupt or stupid bleeding-heart politicians to lock out competition and force the customer to pay more.

 There is a natural tendency of products and services to improve in quality and decrease in cost as productivity increases due to the accumulation of the capital (from business profits and investment of saved consumer's money) - and decrease in price due to competition.
 Artificially forcing that procress actually slows it down. Imagine that the first cars were saddled with modern safety restrictions? We would still be riding horses, since so few would be sold that the manufacturers would have no profits to expand the business.

 As you can see, all those restrictions while appearing to apply to the producers, in reality restrict the freedom of the consumers[/i] and increase their costs!

 Responcibility is an economic good the same as any other - it has costs and price. People should be free to buy it or not.

 Of course the buraucrat's decisions are purely arbitrary - they constantly allow dangerous crap to be sold under the approving stamp of the FDA - thus misleading consumers to believe the products are safe and not doing their research.

 miko

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2003, 02:50:30 PM »
Why should fraud be illegal? Are you getting soft on us miko?

Offline ravells

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« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2003, 03:45:43 PM »
OK Miko,

(I may not complete this post as wifey will be home soonish from abroad...if so, I'll continue it tomorrow)

Unjust: We all have a gut feeling about what injustice is. Through passing legislation we try to define it. We have courts to interpret that legislation. So, legislation attempts to define the meaning of  words 'unjust' and 'unfair' in the context of the subject the legislation is dealing with. It is precisely because 'the small guy' gets hurt because he has less access to resources, that we have the Unfair Contract Terms Act.  If you like, the Act exists to prevent the 'small guy' from being coerced by 'the big guy'.

The Act works on two 'levels' the first applies to people who deal as consumers (ie. Individuals) - they are afforded better protection. The second level applies to commercial dealing, where the protections are less.

That out of the way, let's move on to the specific examples I gave:

1. When it comes to excluding liability for death or injury, you are basically saying that if there were no legislation, there would exist a range of services on offer which people could choose from (very risky to very safe) and assume the risk themselves. Or they could take out some other form of protection (e.g. insurance).

This is fine in theory but it makes a number of assumptions:

The first is that people will be in a position to make an informed choice. Let's take an example here:

You board a bus and buy a ticket. The ticket says - to view our full terms and conditions, please ask our head office by writing to [address] who will be pleased to provide you with a full copy.  Now, for the sake of a bus journey, are you actually going to say, 'No, I won't take that bus, I'll write to the company, get their full terms and conditions (which may run into pages of fine print) and then make an informed choice.' (after writing off to all the other bus companies and comparing the conditions) no...of course you wouldn't. We live in a world where are are dependant on an expectation of minimum standards all of the time, whether it's cashing a cheque, taking an aeroplane ride or going to the fair. If we were to have to read terms and condition on every occasion the world would be so glued up, we couldn't function (how many times do you read terms and conditions when you are loading up new software on your computer?). The existance of this legislation allows us to do more important things than read the fine print on every service we contract for which may have some bearing on our health.

Second: There is an assumption that there will be competition rather than a cartel.  It is not beyond the bounds of belief that rather than competing, all companies (let's use bus transport again) will have the exclusion.

Third: The assumption that the alternative is an acceptable alternative. Taking the bus example - I would frankly prefer to have all my limbs rather than to receive an insurance payout for a lost arm because the bus company hired a driver who drives whilst drunk or which uses a bus with faulty brakes etc etc.

2. Extortionate credit bargains - I'm sorry I don't understand what you're saying, but perhaps I was not being clear:

The type of contractual term I am thinking of is one which says: If you default on an instalment on this hire purchase, you will pay 40% interest per annum on the arrears.

Now when people take out credit, they generally have no intention of going into arrears, but unforseen circumstances may make this happen.  The way that the Act deals with this is to say to the lender: You are only entitled to be compensated the actual loss you suffer. So that might be the value of the arrears plus a commercial rate of interest - say the base rate plus 2%.

Next example: Selling products which must be fit for purpose and of suitable quality:

Again, your theory depends on the customer having all the information he requires in order to make an informed decision. In the complex, technological world in which we live the customer often does not have access to the information or the expertise which allows him to make an informed decision.

You buy a prescription drug in the pharmacy. The Seller does not mention any negative side effects (e.g. Thalidomide). You baby is born with no arms or legs and you have no redress.

Your car example is a good one, but doesn't hold up under inspection again because for Customers to have a choice it must be an informed choice - which is rarely the case. Sure if the car salesman were to say to you, 'There is this car for $10,000 less, but the brakes are faulty' then you might make an informed choice. But which salesman is ever going to say that?

Moving onto your general comments about the Act:

You see the Act as anti-competative because it forces suppliers to conform to certain standards. To a degree it is. But we have competing needs here. The need to keep people safe measured against the need for a free market economy to work. In life we are always faced with measuring up cometing interests. What I say is that having no government controls whatsoever over corporations is a simplistic approach which will merely end up with corporate 'fiefdoms' in which a few will amass a most of the wealth and the many will merely be serfs, simply because individuals lack the power to deal with corporations.

After all, if a corporation is merely the representation of a collection of people who are engaged in a business enterprise, then a government is is just a a representation of larger group of people who decide the limits those corporations work within.

Do not forget - Corporations are merely an artificial human construct and they should be our servants and not our masters.



Ravs  :)

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2003, 03:49:23 PM »
I will have to reply over the weekend.

 miko

Offline ravells

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« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2003, 04:05:51 PM »
I'll keep an eye out!

Take care and have a good w/e

Ravs

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2003, 09:41:03 PM »
We have courts to interpret that legislation. So, legislation attempts to define the meaning of words 'unjust' and 'unfair'
Big issue righ here. There is a difefrence between a law and legislation. The government is a territorial monopolist on coercion and decision-making (jusrisdiction). As with any monopoly, the quality and quantity of it's services (security and justice) tends to decline while the costs will rise. Especially if the government is democratic. But that's beside the point. If you believe that any legislation anacted by the people holding the gun is the same as law or that truth and justice can be determined by majority vote, you may have a good practical point. But then what sense does it make having a philosophical discussion?
 
the Act exists to prevent the 'small guy' from being coerced by 'the big guy'.
Coerced means a person using violence or threat of violence (or fraud) against another person - basically making him act against his will. If I hit you with a stick and took your wallet, that means I coerced you. If a tree branch fell on you and I am offering to help you in exchange for your wallet, I may be immoral but not coercive. I did not contribute to your hardship. It was purely your decision to stand where the branch would fall.
The regular criminal law exists to prevent the 'small guy' from being coerced by 'the big guy', not the Act.

We live in a world where are are dependant on an expectation of minimum standards all of the time...
Your example deals with a sudden end to a system that has been growing for the last hundred years. Sure - it would be a difficult adjustemnt, just like quitting drugs is a difficult adjustment. Still, it's hardly an argument for drugs being beneficial. For millenia before that the civilisation seemed to work just fine without such an act. People were naturally inquisitive of the new things before the welfare state corrupted them into not thiniking.

The existance of this legislation allows us to do more important things than read the fine print on every service we contract for which may have some bearing on our health.
The proprietor is 100% dependent on serving his customers and he knows the situation intimately. The bureaucrat is not. It is impossible to create the legislation that would cover all the cases and all the possible changes. There is always new knowlege or knowlege in which experts differ. How would a bureaucrat make the correct decision unless he is a god? Any such decision will be at best arbitrary.
Anyway, such legislation is equivalent to taking away fredom and property - by taking (partial) control of people's bodies and property. Any government that can arbitrary do that (vote or bureucrat's decision) is already way too dangerous. It's a monopoly, so it's bound to grow untill it takes away all freedom and property.

It is not beyond the bounds of belief that rather than competing, all companies (let's use bus transport again) will have the exclusion
Without the government involvement, cartels and monopolies do not work and never did. It's a bit complex economic subject to cover in a paragraph.
 The government is already a monopoly anyway, and people who have no moral scruples have a huge advanatge in taking control over it if it is a democracy, so that is a bigger reason for concern.
Speaking of the worst cases,  consider those:
- If a proprietor is willing to cut corners and rely on a customer not reading fine script, as in your example, what makes you think he will not be able to find a way around a legislation that was written few years ago? Only competition would keep his on his toes every day, not the law.
- A proprietor may be willing to actually break a law anyway - and will probably not be caught.
- A scoundrel may as well become a politician as a bad businessman and create faulty, harmfull legislation - to favor some special influencem etc.
- A customer that cannot afford a legitimate service because it is priced too high due to legislation will use a black-market provider against whom he has no protection whatsoever.

Taking the bus example - I would frankly prefer to have all my limbs rather than to receive an insurance payout
The bus is not your right. Take a competitor's bus or whatever you took before the bus company opened it's business. And if that something has closed - it must be because this bus is better than whatever was there.

The assumption that the alternative is an acceptable alternative.
Every thing on the free market was introduced volintarily because it was superior to whatever was there before. It did not mandate the closure of the old method - people have abandoned it gradually and voluntarily. If there was not much cause for government action before, there should be less now, not more.

because the bus company hired a driver who drives whilst drunk or which uses a bus with faulty brakes etc etc
Happens every day despite laws. Competition is way better protector.

Now when people take out credit, they generally have no intention of going into arrears, but unforseen circumstances may make this happen
You can buy a cheap health insurance with a huge deduction - and that would be better than if you could afford no health insurance because the dedction was limited. Yes - you would lose you property.
 Same as a person signing 40% may at worst lose his property.

The way that the Act deals with this is to say to the lender: You are only entitled to be compensated the actual loss you suffer. So that might be the value of the arrears plus a commercial rate of interest - say the base rate plus 2%.
So the lender would not loan money to some people that really need it - like to buy a car to be able to get to a new job. Lender will not suffer much, the small guys will - either because they will get no loan or because they will go to a black market loan shark. You think 40% is the worst thing that could happen? How about broken knees. oh, I forgot - there must be a law forbidding to break people's knees. It must be real help. :)

Again, your theory depends on the customer having all the information he requires in order to make an informed decision. In the complex, technological world in which we live the customer often does not have access to the information or the expertise which allows him to make an informed decision.
 And such state only exists because the govt intervention skewed the picture. All the new products are introduced because they are better, not worse, than the previous one. They simplify life, not complicate it. And there is always a helpfull competitor or a private eccreditation agency that would point out the flaws.
 Ever heard of a "moral hazard" concept? That is the clear case. The government makes it cheaper to not think, so all the temporary gain will be promptly compensated by more not thinking on the part of customers. Since the fast food is deemed safe by FDA, the people do not have to be cautious.

which will merely end up with corporate 'fiefdoms' in which a few will amass a most of the wealth and the many will merely be serfs
Come on, that is plain silly. The corporation that displeased it's customers will be gone the next day. Customer is the souvereign in a free-market economy. Customer is the one deciding what and of which quality is sold.

After all, if a corporation is merely the representation of a collection of people who are engaged in a business enterprise, then a government is is just a a representation of larger group of people who decide the limits those corporations work within.
Huge difference. The free market every day redistributes the control over the means of production from the people who failed to correctly predict and most efficiently satisfy the needs of the customers - to those who do it better. That is not an arbitrary process. Even if the decisions are made completely randomly, the right decision will be rewarded and the wrng one will go bankrupt.
 The political process comes up with a soluition by whatever method and there is no real way to correct for errors. If anything, the errors get more funding rather than get discontinued.

 Economic way is always voluntary, political way is always coercive. With economic way everyone may have his wish - even if it costs more in custom cases. In political way, everyone does what the government has decided.
 You can get the same item in any country where free market exists. But where the law is concerned, every country is different. There is a huge differece between modern democratic Russia and USA. I would not call the difference 'merely' where the legislation is concerned.

Corporations are merely an artificial human construct and they should be our servants and not our masters.
They always are - unless they buy the power of the goverment to avoid the free-market competition.

Could I interest you in reading a short book "Economics for real people" by Gene Callahan and then discussing whatever you want to argue? Otherwise you will spend more time talking to me than it would take you to read the book and you will not get as good an explanation.

 Regards,
miko

Offline Creamo

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« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2003, 09:54:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Why should fraud be illegal? Are you getting soft on us miko?


Miko may be long winded, but that was a like a punter trying to cover Terrel Owens.

Just dont reply.

Offline ravells

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« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2003, 01:55:56 AM »
Thanks for coming back to me, Miko.

Unfortunately the book you mention is not available on Amazon in the UK, but I'll be in NYC in late December, so I'll pick up a copy there and read it with interest.

Can I offer you two titles in return? 'Captive State: the Corporate Takeover of Britain' by George Monbiot. I am afraid that the examples of corporate shinnanegans are all UK based, but I expect the same relationship between corporations and government exists in the U.S.

The other one (you may have heard of) is 'Fast Food Nation'. This is a book about the fast food industry in the U.S. which demonstrates to me why we need state intervention in industry and how bankrolling political parties means that the state intervention will never happen.

I'd like to get back to you on the substance of your post but will have to do that within the next day or two.

cheers

Ravs

Offline _Schadenfreude_

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Miko
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2003, 02:09:19 AM »
Don't you people have jobs to go to, presents to wrap or lives that exist outside this BB? What the hell did you do before the internet came along?????

Offline ravells

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« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2003, 03:59:15 AM »
Got the wife to wrap the presents.

;)

Ravs

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2003, 03:28:05 PM »
ravells: Thanks for coming back to me, Miko.

Unfortunately the book you mention is not available on Amazon in the UK, but I'll be in NYC in late December, so I'll pick up a copy there and read it with interest.


 I am not sure you can buy it in the store. Get it here http://www.mises.org/store/product1.asp??SID=2&Product_ID=116 - at the Ludwig von Mises institute site. They have a great catalog of books on econimics and philisofy of liberty.

 Have you read "The Road to Serfdom" by Hayek?

Can I offer you two titles in return?

 Thanks, they will go on my long list. I wish I started serious studies a few years earlier - before I've got kids.
 On the other hand, I really took on studying how the world works because of the kids. If I was childless, I could not care less. I am not much for academic knowlege that one would take to his grave - especially when there are exiting stuff like AH around..

The other one (you may have heard of) is 'Fast Food Nation'. This is a book about the fast food industry in the U.S. which demonstrates to me why we need state intervention in industry and how bankrolling political parties means that the state intervention will never happen.

 The need for state intervention is in most cases (all that I know of) is caused by the undesirable effects of the previous state interventions. Anourmous amounts of taxpayer money is spent subcidising the most unhealthy foods and promoting the most unhealthy diets.
 As well the state intervention is responcible for people not being able to make informed choices. You get more of what you subcidise. Once you subcidise irresponcibility, you inevitably get more of it.

I'd like to get back to you on the substance of your post but will have to do that within the next day or two.

 I would really wish you read the book first and come back to the topic later whith whatever critiques you have then. I am not going anywhere.

 What kind of business do you have in NY? May be we could meet.

 miko
« Last Edit: December 15, 2003, 03:30:50 PM by miko2d »

Offline ravells

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« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2003, 04:32:54 AM »
Hi Miko,

I have not yet read the road to serfdom, you have mentioned it before - I have it on order and will look forward to reading.

I will come back you you after I've read the book.

My wife and I will be in NYC from 27 Dec to 30 Dec on holiday. It would be great to meet up.

Drop me a line at: rshankar@beaumont.co.uk

cheers

Ravs