Author Topic: Throttle prolem  (Read 321 times)

mikess

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Throttle prolem
« on: December 12, 1999, 04:20:00 PM »
Hello,

I have a CH prothrottle and combat stick set up.  However, I can seem to get 100% power when the thorttle is open.  The max I get is 60% power.  I calibrate the stick and throttle and it has full motion but I still can't get 100% power.  

Any suggestions?

Thanks


Offline Tibbets

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Throttle prolem
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 1999, 06:53:00 PM »
Im not sure but it sounds like you are looking at manifold pressure. It is on 60 on every plane i think. Check the gauge again ..if it says "MAN" on it you have no prob  

214CaveJ

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Throttle prolem
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 1999, 08:02:00 PM »
a quick way to see if you're at max throttle is to hit the wep key (p)
if wep kicks in, you're at max throttle, if it dinnae, you're not =)

-blk--

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Throttle prolem
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 1999, 10:25:00 PM »
  Yeah, it sounds like you're looking at the Manifold Pressure gauge (MAN in AH).  Do we need to post the MAP explanation again to explain what this instrument does?

blk  (AT)

mikess

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Throttle prolem
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 1999, 11:11:00 AM »
Thanks guys.  Guess those little letters are hard to read.  And no, you guys don't need to post the explanation again.  


-blk--

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Throttle prolem
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 1999, 06:59:00 PM »
  No problem.  If anyone else needs it posted, just let me know (still don't know why it's not in the FAQ...).  I'm sure others have the same question mikess, didn't mean to sound snobby with the last post there.

blk  (AT)

Offline iculus

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Throttle prolem
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 1999, 08:27:00 PM »
Blk,

I'll take you up on the offer  I have a vague understanding of what's going on with the guage, but how does manifold pressure increase power vs. RPM increase?

IC

Offline Minotaur

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Throttle prolem
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 1999, 10:22:00 PM »
iculus;

Here is what I understand, hopefully an expert can fill in the gaps of what I miss.  

Put an internal combustion piston engine through one revolution and it attempts to pump a set volume of air.  This amount of air is based on the combined volumes of each of its combustion chambers.  For the engine to pump a volume of air, it must also intake the same volume of air.  

For most automobiles this is also how the engine is rated.  IE: 2.5 liters.  

The engine makes horsepower (Hp) in proportion to the amount of air that flows to it.  Restrict the air flow, and you control the Hp output.  A valve is placed on the engine intake line, and is able to restrict the amount of inflowing air.  This valve is generally called the "Throttle" or "Throttle valve" and serves to control engine Hp.  

The restriction of air flow, by the "Throttle Valve", often causes the engine intake pressure to be at a pressure below atomspheric.  The engine is actually trying to suck air faster than it can get past the restriction of the "Throttle Valve".  However, with the "Throttle Valve" wide open, there is little restriction and intake pressure approaches atomospheric.

An operator or linkage is connected to the "Throttle Lever" in the cockpit, and moves the "Thottle Valve".  Allowing the pilot to control the engines Hp output.

A gauge is placed downstream of the "Throttle Valve" and upstream of the engine air intake.  This guage measures intake pressure in absolute pressure.  <edited>.  

<edited>

The intake pressure indication (MAP) is a very good way to determine total engine output or engine loading(Hp).

Picture this:  
Throttle valve nearly closed --> airflow is severly restricted --> Engine load is low (idling) -or- Throttle valve is wide open --> airflow is not restricted --> Engine load is maximum (Mil Power).

I believe the engines / propellers modeled in AH are "Constant Speed".  This means that the engine and propeller do not change RPM.  What actually changes is the pitch of the propeller.  

The propeller has a mechanism that detects RPM.  Any attempt to increase RPM and the propeller increases pitch.  Increased propeller pitch increases the load on the engine and consequently RPM returns to the previous value.  Same, but the oposite, for attempting to lower RPM's.

So lets say you open the throttle.  MAP goes from 30" to 40".  The engine now recieves more air, and thusly makes more Hp.  More Hp means the RPM's raise.  Higher RPM is detected by propeller, and the propeller pitch is increased.  RPM drops, due to the increased work load placed on engine from the propeller.  Kind of a balancing act.

Normally sea level atomosheric pressure is 30 inHg. <edited>  As altitude increases this pressure drops.  To maintain the same engine Hp at 15,000 feet, the air pressure to the engine intake must be raised or boosted.

So say at sea level the atomospheric pressure is 30" and at 15,000 feet it is 24" (these numbers from my kazoo   ).  You have lost 6" (20%) of air pressure and effectively 20% available engine Hp. <edited>

This is where "Super or Turbo Charging" is applied.  An air pump, called a "Charger", makes up for those lost inches of air pressure.  So with 6" of boost applied, instead of having 24" applied to the intake, you have 30".  The engine will not suffer dramatic loss of Hp, because it has the same air pressure applied as it had at sea level. <edited>

I am not sure, but I suspect that boost is  applied upstream of the "Throttle Valve".  Essentially fooling the engine into believing it is always at sea level and the Hp it produces remains fairly constant over various altitudes.

You can also boost the intake air pressure above sea level air pressure.  However, now you must drastically increase engine component part strength to do so. This was often done however; for high performance engines used in WW2 aiplanes.  

For automobiles, this added boost can give a V-6 engine the power of a larger V-8.

Merry Christmas Everyone!

Mino

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 12-14-1999).]

-blk--

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Throttle prolem
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 1999, 11:48:00 PM »
  Where are you from Mino?  You're either stuck on the metric system, or are used to new cars (at least, i assume newer cars use inches of water, etc...).  Aircraft use inches of mercury (same thing the Altimeter is set to).  At least in the US, some countries (most of them I think), use milibars instead...

  Anyway, here's a repost of the explanation I wrote up for the Alpha, in it's entirety...

--------------------------------
How come the engine's rpm doesn't change when I move the throttle?


Basically, with a fixed pitch propeller, we can measure engine power with the tachometer (rpms). But, with a constant speed (CS) prop, the tachometer should remain constant. Therefor, we've got to measure engine power some other way.

So, we have this thing called Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP). What this is, is we measure the air pressure inside the intake manifold (the pipes that carry air into the engine). First off, standard atmosphere is 29.92 InHg (you'll see where this is going).

First, I'll explain about normally aspirated (not supercharged) engines.  So, with the engine off, the MAP gage will read the ambient air pressure (29.92 InHg). We now decide to start the engine. But at idle power, the throttle plate is closed, and is restricting the flow of air (and sometimes fuel) to the cylinders. So, at idle, the engine will be at a low MAP setting (around 12 InHg MAP or so). It would try to be zero, but if there were NO air/fuel making it to the engine, it wouldn't run, so it'll be around 12 InHg MAP or so. So then, we push the throttle forward to the stop. This moves the throttle plate so that it's restricting the intake air as little as possible (if you don't know how a throttle plate works, most encyclopedias have a decent diagram). So, the engine is going to be as close to 29.92 InHg MAP as it possibly can be (since there's not supposed to be any restrictions). But the air can't be COMPLETELY unrestricted (there are turns in the induction system, the throttle plate still adds a little drag to the intake airstream and so on), so we can usually get around 29 InHg or so. So, you with me so far? As throttle setting increases, MAP increases up to 29 InHg. So, that's how we measure the engine's power with a constant rpm (high MAP equates to high power settings).

Now, remember how I said standard atmosphere was 29.92 InHg? Well, that's at Sea Level (and a "standard" day). As we climb, we lose a lot of that air density (approximately 1 InHg per 1000'). So, the maximum MAP the engine can possibly attain at altitude will decrease (because the atmospheric pressure decreases), and we get a corresponding loss of engine power at high altitude.

So, someone got smart, and decided that if we could somehow get more than ambient air pressure at altitude, the engine (and thus the aircraft) would perform better. So, basically, they compress air going into the intake manifold back to that sea level pressure (29.92 InHg). So, the engine can develop its sea level Horsepower at altitude. This is called "Normalizing." When we compress the air with a compressor driven by an exhaust driven turbine, we've got a "Turbo-Normalizer," or what's generally referred to as a "Turbocharger."  but then, someone else got even smarter, and decided that if we could boost MAP back up to sea level pressure at altitude, we could increase it even more. Thus, at sea level we could get MAP in excess of 29.92 InHg. So, we're actually increasing the Horsepower of the engine to an artificially high level. This is called "Supercharging."  When an exhaust driven turbine drives the Supercharger, it's called a "Turbo-Supercharger." So, how do we operate such an engine?

Well, on the P-51D in AH, the normal full throttle, on the runway MAP is 60 InHg (which corresponds pretty well to the 61 InHg redline in real life). So, 60 InHg is full throttle. And, that idle MAP setting is about 20-30 InHg because the turbo-supercharger is compressing the air just a bit there too (and that engine will draw at least 20 InHg MAP in order to keep all 12 of those high compression cylinders working...).

                         WEP is just giving you a boost to 65 InHg. In RL, you've got to be careful not to overboost the engine (create more HP than the engine can absorb, and the heat associated with such high power settings does a lot of damage as well).  But since this is AH, you can push the engine hard, just watch how long you fly with WEP engaged.
-----------------------------

Mino, you've got an excellent uderstanding of the subject BTW, just using funny units and names with regards to airplanes...

Also, as to your question as to where the air is compressed...

Yes, a turbo or supercharger will increase the MAP of the induction air BEFORE the throttle plate (the area between the compressor and the throttle plate is called the "upper deck," if anyone wondered).  Usually, fuel is introduced right at the throttle plate at the earliest.  Most modern turbo/supercharging systems are fuel injected anyway.

blk  (AT)

Offline Minotaur

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Throttle prolem
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 1999, 03:17:00 AM »
-blk--

cc thanks for your reply!  

I find this stuff fascinating.  I have edited out some, <gulp> obvious inaccuracies.  I left what I felt was correct since I took the time to write it up, but I did not want to be so misleading on certain things..

Somehow I got to thinking 15psia = 1 bar = 30" Hg = 60" H2O +/-.  Hence the 60" for MAP. However; 15psia = 1 bar = 30" Hg = 415" H2O +/-.  You are correct, I don't know airplanes well, I should have stayed more generic.

I am pretty sure 5.0 Liters = 305 cubic inches, 5.8 = 350 +/-  etc...  It is pretty common to classify engines for automobiles in liters.

For the rest --> Oops.  I'll get that egg off soon enough!  

Merry Christmas Everyone!

Mino

Offline iculus

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Throttle prolem
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 1999, 07:11:00 AM »
blk and mino,

thanks for reply!  Internal combustion is neat stuff

BTW, did any allied planes use fuel injection?

IC

Offline indian

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Throttle prolem
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 1999, 09:31:00 AM »
Iculus they used a type of pressurized carb that in a way is simular to injection but not totally.

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