Author Topic: 7 guns on buff are useless (Read 412 times)

SC-GreyBeard · « **on:** December 13, 1999, 06:57:00 PM »

To all you realism freaks out there....

Why bother having 12 guns on a buff when almost 2/3 of them won't fire????

even with gunner on board, a buff is dogmeat if 2 planes attack at same time from diff directions.....

Maximum guns that will bear on any given angle is 5.

leaves almost 2/3 of firepower at home doing nuthing.....

Kinda extremely unrealistic..

Granted a full "otto" buff would be terrible for game play. But the 17's and any other bomber should have a basic "otto" for the unmanned/un-used guns. Perhaps limited to a 1000 yd commence firing range, with a really low hit percentage. (shouldn't be anywhere close to current ground based accuracy)
which at all times would/could be over-ridden by any manned guns.

Or perhaps just a second gunner spot.

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GreyBeard
Flight Commander, Aces High
Skeleton Crew

Fishu · « **Reply #1 on:** December 13, 1999, 08:27:00 PM »

...actually theres 6 guns pointing forwards...
Second, those guns shoots down more fighters than I can imagine buff do.
Lone B-17 were supposed to be dog meat?

rosco- · « **Reply #2 on:** December 13, 1999, 08:37:00 PM »

Just my opinion but having flown a buff a few times, I would say they have it pretty good. I find kills much easier in a 17 than any of the fighters. 1 buff vs 2 fighters has a much greater chance than 1 fighter against 2 buffs.

Gazoo · « **Reply #3 on:** December 13, 1999, 09:03:00 PM »

I currently like the gunner system. I have done a reasonable amount of gunning and I think it is workable. I find I can easily get kills *IF* the direct 6 attack is used.

When someone sets up a high speed slash, I don't get squat. When 2 or three attack in a coordinated attack its all over. (not direct 6 together though, thats too easy.

The biggest draw back in AH is both the scale of the field and fuel consuption. You don't have much time to climb above the buff and blow down in a high speed slash and repeat before the bombs fall. Two all of that climbing, finding, setting up can burn a lot of fuel. (unless your in a hog)

Just remeber, when you are attacking don't present a steady target untill you are pulling the trigger.

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"Just Plane Nuts"
Gazoo
http://plaza.v-wave.com/SolarStorm/index.htm

TT · « **Reply #4 on:** December 13, 1999, 11:15:00 PM »

Kinda unrealstic? How about if a gun is unmanned it dont shoot. In fact I doubt if they let a B17 leave the ground without a full gun crew. Just say no to OTTO of any kind. This aint no boxed sim.

juzz · « **Reply #5 on:** December 14, 1999, 12:10:00 AM »

I don't understand your complaint GreyBeard...

Only 5 guns on a target at a time? Do you want all 12 to fire anywhere? The guns that fire depends on the angles. PLUS all "active" guns fire at the same place, putting alot of bullets on the target if the gunner is accurate.

Dead 6 or 12 gives you 6 guns (front or rear turret, ball and mid-upper)
11 and 1 level fires the cheek gun(s) too, making for 7 guns.
4-5 and 7-8 gets the waist gunners firing too, making for 7 at the back.
At 3 and 9 the ball, mid-upper, waist and chin guns fire. 7 guns.

I can agree that a second gunner position is needed to deal with more than 1 attacker, but I imagine it would be difficult to work it into the current system. How do you determine where the unmanned guns fire? Who gets control of what turrets?

I think a front/rear split might work.
1 gunner; he gets all guns.
2 gunners; the first one to join gets restricted to control of the back set(ball, waists and rear), the new gunner gets the front set(midupper and chin/cheeks). If either gunner discos, then the 1 gunner rules re-apply.

juzz · « **Reply #6 on:** December 14, 1999, 12:11:00 AM »

Yeah, what he said! (double post)

[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 12-14-1999).]

SC-GreyBeard · « **Reply #7 on:** December 14, 1999, 01:22:00 AM »

Actually juzz, if a bogie is dead 6 co-alt,, all ya get are the tail guns,, usually though you'll get either upper or bottom turret but not both at same time. I also think you and Fishu both, need to take another look at yer firing arcs for yer guns. (cheek guns do not fire straight ahead, nor to 3 oc. and at no range will the top and bottom turret shoot the same target at the same time. )
Thus you'll never have more than 5 guns bearing on any given target.

I still say 7 guns on the buff are useless..
at any given time. The way things are now.

I agree that 6 oc attacks are almost too deadly for the attackers, I constantly get two or three kills before taking enuff damage to go down from 6 oc attackers. against slash attackers, it's about even for me.. depends on whether I'm "on" that day or not.

it's the savvy team attack I'm talking about,, while I'm peppering the one inbound attacker,, the other one gets a free ride and free kill.... when chances are there were 3-5 guns that should or could have been firing at him too..

Even though I do agree wirh TT that the way most "otto" is done is totally deplorable. There should or could be a happy medium, extremely low accuracy or limited begin firing range or a combination of both. (Though taking TT's thought to the extreme, perhaps we need to "man" the field AAA.)

Myself? I'd much rather to see a second gunner spot. Over any possible "otto" solution. which could possibly allow a pilot to man the unmanned guns, that the gunner isn't.

Also, how come when jumping to guns from pilot position, if plane is in nose up auto-climb, it continues to climb, but if plane is nose down auto angle, why does it go level???? (really bites to be dead stick, jump to guns, and almost immediately stall...)

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GreyBeard
Flight Commander, Aces High
Skeleton Crew

[This message has been edited by SC-GreyBeard (edited 12-14-1999).]

[This message has been edited by SC-GreyBeard (edited 12-14-1999).]

[This message has been edited by SC-GreyBeard (edited 12-14-1999).]

juzz · « **Reply #8 on:** December 14, 1999, 05:23:00 AM »

Quote

Actually juzz, if a bogie is dead 6 co-alt,, all ya get are the tail guns,, usually though you'll get either upper or bottom turret but not both at same time. I also think you and Fishu both, need to take another look at yer firing arcs for yer guns. (cheek guns do not fire straight ahead, nor to 3 oc. and at no range will the top and bottom turret shoot the same target at the same time. )
Thus you'll never have more than 5 guns bearing on any given target.

Well, that's not what I am seeing... I never said cheek guns fire ahead or 3 o'clock, I said 1 and 11 o'clock. The chin turret will fire at targets to the side at 2 and 10. Similarly the rear turret fires at 4 and 8. If a target is dead 6 level I get upper, ball and rear guns firing. Same for 12 level in front. For ANY level target anywhere, both mid-upper and ball turret fire. It's a small zone but it is there. There's almost no angle where less than 4 guns are able to fire. The waist guns can fire through the wings too.

All we need is a way to have 2 gunners (or at least pilot and gunner operating guns at the same time). That should make it much easier to defend against multiple attackers.

I suggest when you're deadstick, use autospeed to set the best gliding speed (instead of autoangle) - it stays on while you gun. It will autolevel if you go f6/norden though.

Fishu · « **Reply #9 on:** December 14, 1999, 01:07:00 PM »

Actually, I've been strafing buildings alot, noticed that those cheek guns do shoot straight ahead together.
So, straight ahead target gets ball turret, chin turret and cheek guns on them. (when I've ran out of chin turret ammo, cheek guns have both fired ahead)
Also ball turret seems to have ability to shoot through the plane.

Pyro · « **Reply #10 on:** December 14, 1999, 10:05:00 PM »

Greybeard, I'll pose these questions then and see how your answers correlate to your hypotheis.

On what percentage of your buff sorties will you be able to crew multiple gunners?

On what percentage of your buff sorties do you encounter multiple attackers simultaneously? I don't mean multiple bogeys in con range, I mean a simultaneous attack, as in two people are attacking you from within guns range at the same instant.

On what percentage of simultaneous attacks are the attackers coming from different directions? Remember, this is in regards to simultaneous attacks, not serial attacks.

On what percentage of sorties with simultaneous attacks from different directions with multiple gunners do you think you'll survive?

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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

Rocket · « **Reply #11 on:** December 14, 1999, 11:32:00 PM »

Pyro,
I have been in the situation several times when cap got smart and hit from front and rear at the same time.. If the pilot could have jumped to an unused gun and got some rounds off maybe it would have helped. I understand why just 1 gunner. Not many times can you get enough ppl to crew a full set of gunners. Maybe the pilot can help???

Rocket www.reddragons.de

shower · « **Reply #12 on:** December 14, 1999, 11:36:00 PM »

i'm not a historian, but i aggre w/ fishu. 1v1 the bomber is much too deadly. most people don't bother to attack them at all because it means climbing for a long time and if you do manage to intercept it in time survival rate is distressingly low. the end result is if you take the time to climb the bomber to 15-20k you can pretty much bomb with impunity.

-shower

bloom25 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 15, 1999, 02:44:00 AM »

I think that the only workable solution would be to allow the pilot to man the guns along with the gunner. I've had this happen to me a time or too also.

(I don't want the computer wasting all my ammo anyway, not to mention stealing my hard earned kills

)

SC-GreyBeard · « **Reply #14 on:** December 15, 1999, 02:54:00 AM »

response to Pyro's Questions...
<Pyro>On what percentage of your buff sorties will you be able to crew multiple gunners?

1. very seldom, since it seems that generally the rooks are fighting a two front war, and are usually in the about even in numbers or fighting at 3-2 odds or worse.

<Pyro>On what percentage of your buff sorties do you encounter multiple attackers simultaneously? I don't mean multiple bogeys in con range, I mean a simultaneous attack, as in two people are attacking you from within guns range at the same instant.

2. In the last 4-5 days or so, I've seen, and been the victim of, multiple attackers more and more. I'd say in the last 20 sorties I've flown in a 17, I've been nailed by simutaneous attackers in perhaps 8-10 of those sorties.

<Pyro>On what percentage of simultaneous attacks are the attackers coming from different directions? Remember, this is in regards to simultaneous attacks, not serial attacks.

3. See #2

<Pyro>On what percentage of sorties with simultaneous attacks from different directions with multiple gunners do you think you'll survive?

4. with the current setup of only 1 gunner??
Zip, nada, zero, bukkus...

with a 2nd gunner,,, if lucky perhaps 1 or 2 in 20.. (some chance is better than none.)

Note.
I Fly a LOT of bomber sorties. My preferred ride is the 17. (prolly 'cause I'm a terrible ftr pilot.)

The majority of my flights are 50% fuel for distance, with fuel at bases and towers being the main targets.

I'm finding that more and more often I'm running into the pairs of fighters in the 18-25k range. Above that, I seldom see more than 1 ftr engaging at a time.

And Yes, a single ftr attacking a lone 17 is not a "gimme" for the fighter by a long shot.
They didn't call 'em "FORTS" for nuthing.

Also, My average ping time to hitech is in the 300-400 range, and a lot of these ftr types have the less than 100 MS ping time.
So I'm gonna die a higher percentage of the time anyway, I just want SOME chance of surviving.

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GreyBeard
Flight Commander, Aces High
Skeleton Crew

[This message has been edited by SC-GreyBeard (edited 12-15-1999).]

[This message has been edited by SC-GreyBeard (edited 12-15-1999).]