Author Topic: Wingload - tables for AH planes  (Read 6720 times)

Offline Badboy

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Wingload - tables for AH planes
« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2003, 06:29:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen
I have the whole RAE report (RM No. 2361). Actually this is a version published by the Aeronatical Council after war; well printed and clean if compared to original (available from British library as well as many technical universities have this series).
gripen


Hi Gripen,

I'd like to try and get a copy of that report, can you give a full reference for it, and perhaps the details of the library that has a copy?

Thanks...

Badboy

PS HoHun, if I get a copy I'll be happy to duplicate it and snail mail to you.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2003, 06:32:34 PM by Badboy »
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Offline gripen

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Wingload - tables for AH planes
« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2003, 11:16:48 PM »
Badboy,
My copy is ordered from the British Library. They have a public catalogue there search for "Messerschmitt Handling" under category Reference Material only. You will get one result. After that follow the document order link in the BLPC main page and choose non registered customer. Then just fill the order form (you need a credit card). And that's it.

gripen

Offline Badboy

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Wingload - tables for AH planes
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2003, 05:15:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen
Badboy,
My copy is ordered from the British Library. They have a public catalogue there search for "Messerschmitt Handling" under category Reference Material only. You will get one result. After that follow the document order link in the BLPC main page and choose non registered customer. Then just fill the order form (you need a credit card). And that's it.

gripen



Thanks, I managed to phone them just before they closed today and placed my order. Does that report only discuss the 109, or is the Spitfire covered also? I’d like to get the same info for the Spitfire, is that in a different document?

Did you find any similarly interesting documents there?

Thanks again…

Badboy
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Offline Badboy

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Wingload - tables for AH planes
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2003, 05:26:42 PM »
Guys,

On a similar note, since finding the different style of EM diagram sometimes seen in reports dated that far back, like the ones at this location:

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit109turn.gif

I decided to reproduce the same type of analysis they have used and piggy back it onto the work I've already done for the Aces High aircraft. Now when I produce an EM analysis for any aircraft, I automatically get both types of diagram. There are advantages and disadvantages to both methods. The diagrams I've been producing were not conceived until the 1960s and they have the advantage that they can be overlaid with one another for a far easier comparison. The disadvantage with the type of EM diagram that originated in the late 30s is that they can't be overlaid. So for example, here is an overlay of the AH Spitfire MkI and the Me109e

 
 
The main advantage to producing the type of EM diagrams seen in those early reports is that they can be compared with the ones that exist for the real aircraft. For example, the Spitfire in the diagram above has this diagram:



But let's compare that with the diagram for the real Spitfire MkI.



Here we can see that both the real Spitfire and the AH Spitfire have the same corner velocity at that altitude and configuration, so let's compare a turn. Just for example I've selected a 5g turn at the corner speed of 250mph. I've indicated on the diagram for the real Spitfire that it would need to descend at 16 degrees below the horizon to sustain that turn and it would turn a full circle in about 14.5 seconds with a radius of about 850ft. You can see from the diagram for the AH Spitfire that it would also make the same turn in about 14.5 seconds with a radius of 850ft, and that it would need to descend at an angle of 23 degrees below the horizon, a descending turn only 6 degrees steeper than the real aircraft. But the turn rates and radii for the turn, along with the corner speed are amazingly close. The difference in the angle of descent is probably due to differences in engine power available at that altitude between the real world tests and Aces High, and perhaps some differences in weight.

It is interesting that both diagrams are essentially the same shape, and that they agree quite closely in many respects, indicating that the flight model in Aces High has accounted for all of the aerodynamic factors that would influence the shape of the curves to any significant degree. A worthy achievement indeed. Kudos to HTC.

This is even more significant, because I've made a similar comparison with the Spitfire and 109e from other simulations, and so far Aces High has first place for accuracy.  I'm just thinking of writing up the whole comparison for an article on SimHQ.

Merry Christmas guys...

Badboy
« Last Edit: December 23, 2003, 07:10:42 PM by Badboy »
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Offline Angus

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Wingload - tables for AH planes
« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2003, 06:40:31 PM »
Very NICE :) :) :) :) :)
Emm, now as wingloading will change according to A of A and Pitch as well, does anyone happen to have the easy formula for calculating that?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline HoHun

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Wingload - tables for AH planes
« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2003, 03:15:01 AM »
Hi Angus,

>Emm, now as wingloading will change according to A of A and Pitch as well, does anyone happen to have the easy formula for calculating that?

L = Cl (alpha) * 1/2 * rho * v^2 * A

L = lift
Cl (alpha) = lift coefficient as a function of angle of attack
rho = air density
v = true air speed
A = wing area

Cl (alpha) is an aircraft-specific function like the one Tilt posted for the La-7. It's based on a wing-section specific function, but application of a 2D wing section to a 3D aircraft inevitably modifies the lift coefficient function.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline HoHun

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Wingload - tables for AH planes
« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2003, 03:43:03 AM »
Hi Badboy,

>The difference in the angle of descent is probably due to differences in engine power available at that altitude between the real world tests and Aces High, and perhaps some differences in weight.

Nice to see such accurate results! If I compare Spitfire Mk I N.3171 to the RAE test Spitfire, I'd say it had 100 HP less, which would slightly reduce the gap.

Note that the Aces High Spitfire's top speed is below that of the RAE test Spitfire, matching that of N.3171 almost exactly.

The Aces High Spitfire seems to have a sustained turn of 21 s/360°, which matches my estimate of 21.5 s/360° for N.3171 nicely.

The only area of difference seems to be the stall speed, which is well below 100 mph TAS for the RAE Spitfire but slightly above for its Aces High pendant.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline gripen

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Wingload - tables for AH planes
« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2003, 07:06:13 AM »
Badboy,
The RAE Bf 109 report contains above mentioned graph for Spitfire and some numerical values on charts. In addition there is discussion about mock combats and ailerons. You can find another RAE report on Spitfire by searching for "Spitfire Turning". Aeronautical Research Council published large amount of RAE reports and there is quite a lot interesting stuff. There is more RAE reports in the PRO but these in the BL are much better edited and copying in the BL is much cheaper.

BTW from where is that Spitfire graph? It's (about) same as in the Bf 109 report but I can see it's from a NACA paper.

HoHun,
Which report on N.3171 you are refering? Only one I can find is a propeller comparison by A&AEE.

gripen

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2003, 06:53:12 PM »
Hi Badboy,

>PS HoHun, if I get a copy I'll be happy to duplicate it and snail mail to you.

Thanks, that would be very kind! :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline HoHun

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Wingload - tables for AH planes
« Reply #39 on: December 24, 2003, 07:16:06 PM »
Hi Gripen,

>Which report on N.3171 you are refering? Only one I can find is a propeller comparison by A&AEE.

That's the one. I used the data from:

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit1.html

because it had a constant speed propeller and 8 Browning guns. I believe it doesn't have armour, but I'm not quite sure of that.

N.3171 was also used as reference for the RAE evaluation of the Spitfire IIA, so I assume it can be considered to be representative for the Spitfire I.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Angus

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Wingload - tables for AH planes
« Reply #40 on: December 25, 2003, 09:13:25 AM »
Hmm
The Spitfire in your link has a 2 pitch metal airscrew, not the CS one. The weights of all of these tests also indicate full combat loading.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline HoHun

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Wingload - tables for AH planes
« Reply #41 on: December 25, 2003, 10:23:17 AM »
Hi Angus,

>The Spitfire in your link has a 2 pitch metal airscrew, not the CS one.

Scroll down a bit :-) On top of the page is K.9793 with the two pitch propeller, the third table is N.3171 with a constant speed Rotol one. You'll see that it gains 1000 fpm initial climb rate, at the expense of 10 mph top speed. (Obviously the two-pitch propeller was optimized for high speed flight.)

>The weights of all of these tests also indicate full combat loading.

Hm, does that mean N.3171 did have armour?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Angus

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Wingload - tables for AH planes
« Reply #42 on: December 26, 2003, 04:01:52 AM »
Oooops...my mistake.
Indeed, the performance increases a lot with a CS airscrew!
The weight keeps going up, so I belive the armour  must have been there. Standard outfit basically
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Badboy

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Wingload - tables for AH planes
« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2003, 11:28:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen
BTW from where is that Spitfire graph? It's (about) same as in the Bf 109 report but I can see it's from a NACA paper.

gripen


Hi Gripen,

That graph came from the Fourth Fighter Group’s web site, from the same location as the other one, here it is:

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit1turn.gif

I have been through the NACA reports available on their server and can’t find it in any of them. However, there are some reports that I can’t find at all. For example, the report titled: Study of Turning Performance of a Fighter-Type Airplane Particularly as Affected by Flaps and Increased Supercharging. By J.W. Wetmore in a NACA report dated June 1942, doesn’t appear to be on the server.

So perhaps others are missing also?

Badboy
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Offline Badboy

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Wingload - tables for AH planes
« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2003, 11:38:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
Scroll down a bit :-) On top of the page is K.9793 with the two pitch propeller, the third table is N.3171 with a constant speed Rotol one. You'll see that it gains 1000 fpm initial climb rate, at the expense of 10 mph top speed. (Obviously the two-pitch propeller was optimized for high speed flight.)

Henning (HoHun)


I think it is worth mentioning that although increasing the solidity of a propeller was a good way to increase its power absorption, and that generally lead to better low speed acceleration and climb rates, it was always at the expense of maximum efficiency due to interference effects between the blades. When ever you look at propeller charts for two, three and four blade propellers of the same type, you will notice that the maximum efficiency drops as the number of blades increases.

Badboy
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