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Author Topic: While I'm on the the subject of icons  (Read 1805 times)

Offline Pei

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While I'm on the the subject of icons
« on: December 15, 2003, 05:26:11 AM »
Would it be possible to make the icons be less visible (i.e. smaller or paler ) and show less information the further away the target is?

Right now we know as much about a plane at 6K yards as we do 50yards.
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Offline Shane

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Re: While I'm on the the subject of icons
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2003, 08:37:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pei
Right now we know as much about a plane at 6K yards as we do 50yards.


i'm sure toad will chime in with his R/L observation of the range of good old markIV eyeballs.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2003, 10:16:07 AM »
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Offline Pei

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While I'm on the the subject of icons
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2003, 06:16:57 PM »
Toad,
2 questions for you ( I don't know the answers beacuse a) I'm not a pilot and b) I'm pretty short sighted):

Do you think the average pilot could reliable distinguish the type and national markings of a WWII aircraft at 6000 yards?

Could they do so with a brief glance?
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2003, 08:04:04 PM »
Well Pei, I can tell you this for a true fact:

At 2 miles both my copilot and I could make out individual windows on other airliners at cruise altitudes. This was over the Atlantic on the NAT tracks, on a clear day with little or no haze, when you've got nothing but time to wonder about stuff.

How do I know it was two miles? First of all, the TCAS transponder system that gives range, altitude and general direction of other participating aircraft.

Secondly, crossing waypoints and giving time reports. We'd cross the same waypoint. I'd just listen to the time they reported and compare our time/distance on the GPS FMS unit.

When you follow a guy for 4 hours, 2 miles in trail (or a bit off to the side; evreybody's GPS and FMS are a tiny bit different usually) and 2000 feet below you have plenty of time to look at him.

Those windows are roughly the size of a kid's notebook paper. Call it 12X10 inches and you'd be close. You could actually count them at 2 miles.

You could see the little American flag on US carriers' tails out past a mile. It's not as big as a Spit roundel.

So yeah, I think you could. Easily.

You guys don't seem to realize that the high, thin, clear air allows much longer distance vision. MUCH longer.
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Offline Arlo

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While I'm on the the subject of icons
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2003, 08:19:06 PM »
How about on a foggy night and you have pinkeye?
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2003, 08:25:03 PM »
Would depend on if I'd been drinking.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Pei

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While I'm on the the subject of icons
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2003, 09:44:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Well Pei, I can tell you this for a true fact:

At 2 miles both my copilot and I could make out individual windows on other airliners at cruise altitudes. This was over the Atlantic on the NAT tracks, on a clear day with little or no haze, when you've got nothing but time to wonder about stuff.

How do I know it was two miles? First of all, the TCAS transponder system that gives range, altitude and general direction of other participating aircraft.

Secondly, crossing waypoints and giving time reports. We'd cross the same waypoint. I'd just listen to the time they reported and compare our time/distance on the GPS FMS unit.

When you follow a guy for 4 hours, 2 miles in trail (or a bit off to the side; evreybody's GPS and FMS are a tiny bit different usually) and 2000 feet below you have plenty of time to look at him.

Those windows are roughly the size of a kid's notebook paper. Call it 12X10 inches and you'd be close. You could actually count them at 2 miles.

You could see the little American flag on US carriers' tails out past a mile. It's not as big as a Spit roundel.

So yeah, I think you could. Easily.

You guys don't seem to realize that the high, thin, clear air allows much longer distance vision. MUCH longer.


Thanks.

I kind of like the fading icons in WWIIOL (you need to look longer a targets further away to get the detail). Do you think that's realistic or do you only need a glance to get most of the data in real life?

I'm also wondering how far out you would be able to distinguish the configuration of an a/c (e.g. 1 vs 2 engines) or a large bomber from a fighter (given good conditions). Would I be right in thinking that most fighter pilots could do this further than our current max icon range?

Also maybe icon ranges should be reduced at night or bad light (i.e. according to conditions).
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Offline Arlo

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« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2003, 09:53:26 PM »
Sounds reasonable ... and more challenging.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2003, 10:08:38 PM »
I only played WW2OL for a little while. I thought the fade in/ fade out was way too long compared to RL.

You do need to look longer to see detail, but I thought they overdid it.

As far as a glance, within reasonable range I think you can get the basic necessary info with a glance. Stuff like Friend/Foe and aspect for sure anyway.

Yes, you can tell a multi from a single a long ways away. Much farther than we can in AH, IMO. It's the pixel limit thing, I guess.

You have the problem of a small dot being a distant bomber or perhaps a much closer fighter in RL too. They're both just dots. However, in RL, they gain detail at much farther ranges than dots in AH.

Night viz is very restricted unless there's some sort of illumination. WX is the same; clouds, fog and such can reduce your viz to the end of  your radome. Nothing like flying welded wing, hitting some weather on an approach and totally losing lead in the goo... knowing you were about 2 feet off his wingtip when last you saw him.  ;)
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline simshell

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While I'm on the the subject of icons
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2003, 10:09:25 PM »
guys if you want to see what its like to have icons off just hit


ALT-I and set icons to off
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Offline Ghosth

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While I'm on the the subject of icons
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2003, 10:00:49 AM »
Even on the deck on a clear day with decent sunshine you can tell plane details a LONG ways away.

I grew up in flat level bowl of the Red River Valley. aka Fargo ND.

Growning up there were 3 yellow planes that I could expect to see on a semi regular basis.

2 were cropdusters, 1 was an old stearman biplane. The third was a 2 passenger light plane that belonged to a friend of mine.

at 2.5 miles I could EASILY see which was which, even if he was making a HO pass on me. (sucker loved to sneak up on me & buzz my tractor from 20 feet up)
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Offline Pongo

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While I'm on the the subject of icons
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2003, 10:09:03 AM »
Toad is just over modeled...we have all suspected it for some time.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2003, 10:15:14 AM »
But.. but.. but.. I lost 20lbs! I'm trying to undermodel myself!

I used to have 20/15 in both eyes, but my eyes got old.

I could still see what I've described after that, so my copilots were probably seeing much more detail. ;)
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline TweetyBird

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While I'm on the the subject of icons
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2003, 11:52:04 AM »
Theres a naval base about 10 miles from where I live. I can see the difference between a jet and a cargo plane at seven miles.
Here you'd just see dots. I imagine pilots had no trouble spotting enemy planes at 7 miles.
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