Justice

[capt. apathy]

DU toxisity is roughly the same as lead, plus any residual radioactivety.

the thing about a dirty bomb isn't that you are exposed to radiation and then leave the area.  you actually take in radioactive materials into your system,  these materials continue to give you 'dose' until they are depleted (not in your lifetime) or you pass them through your system (some will pass some won't,  small particles breathed in are likely to be a peminent thing constantly giving you radiation)

it's not all in solid form either, there are solutions  and gasses, solutions making it to groundwater, gases vented into the wind.

the amount of effort reqquired is exactly why they are such a threat.  the effort is very little, no more high tech then putting an m-80 in someones trashcan, just on a grander scale.

as to where they could get the waste, it's everywhere, hospitals, construction sites, a couple hundred square miles in eastern washington.

[kappa]

I suppose you could dismantle a few thousand fire alarms... they have small amounts of radioactive material in them.. lol

You guys worried about dirty bombs have just bought into the media 'scare'... I mean, why?? No, really, why would you need a 'dirty bomb'?? Radioactive materials can be cleaned... If its a large bomb, as already stated, the disspursment would nullify much of it..

Compare a small 'dirty bomb' to a bomb such as Oklahoma City.. Which do you think would make a bigger point??

[Boroda]

Average lethal radiation dose is 600R in a short period of time. Immediate dose that causes "death under the ray" is 20000R (twenty thousand Rentgen).

IIRC immediate dose that causes irrecoverable illness is ~300-400R.

This is extremely huge quantity. You can get it in a reactor hot zone, or at the epicentre of a nuclear explosion several minutes after it happened.

Just remember: the only people who died in Chernobyl catastrophe were the firemen who extinguished fire in the destroyed hot zone literately with their boots. They were walking on burning heat-emitting elements without even wearing insulated chemical defence suits.

Human is a very endurable animal. Only rats, roaches and hens can survive bigger doses.

That scientists are afraid of chaos and panic that can be caused my radiation sources mostly because of a radiophobia, carefully bred and planted into the brains of uneducated people by the media. In this case it's easier to leech funds on fighting what "everyone" is afraid of then to try educating people. Educated people are dangerous

I don't know about how it goes in the US, but decontamination is a routine procedure, and should not cause any problems in a country that has developed a certain level of civil defence structures.

Also, JFYI: small doses of radiation are good for your health.

[capt. apathy]

Compare a small 'dirty bomb' to a bomb such as Oklahoma City.. Which do you think would make a bigger point??

the consept of a dirty bomb would be the oklahoma city bomb and fill all of the extra space in the truck with waste.

 Boroda, the imediate threat to life is about where you state it.  but that doesn't mean it won't kill you next year or 5 years from now.  every year they are finding the damage is worse than previously thought.

I read the curent regs this past summer and they allow 1/5th of the amount of exposure per year as I was allowed to take in 2 months just 13 years before.

and this is just speaking of exposure, not contamination, 2 completely different subjects.

exposure is radioactive energy passing through you, contamination is putting the source inside your body and continually taking exposure from that source until it either passes though your system or depletes.

and unless you are talking about sunshine, no amount of radiation is 'good for you'

[Scootter]

Guys, this is meaningless, the reaction of the public is what would cause the problem. We have a building in Boca Raton (about 1.2 hours south of me) that is worth over 3 mil. that is still unused due to the Anthrax attack nearly three years ago. Of course the building has been declared safe but no one wants to go near it.

An attack on say the city of New York could easily contaminate several dozen blocks with radioactive materials, sure you could after a massive clean up call it safe (I believe some material could linger in places waiting to be stirred up by a storm or pigeon).

The question is would you live in the area, let your children play in the park, let you wife (pregnant) work in these buildings?

The area would be a ghost town for 30 years or more due to the public terror (get it terror you don't have to kill to couse terror).

The cost and shut down due to the Anthrax was huge and killed what 4 or 5 people?

This is the danger not the actual blast and spread that would kill less then 100 or so.


I will quote Ben Franklin "He who gives up liberty for security has and deserves neither"  I agree with this!!

We are a land of laws and no one is above the law, I we give up freedom then they win. As in our court system better to let ten guilty go free the convict an innocent man.

We are on the edge of a slippery slope here, we must tread carefully.

my .02

[Saintaw]

Originally posted by Horn
All American people of Middle-Eastern origin should be rounded up and put into internment camps. For our safety.

h

nice,
is that part of your constitution too ?

[kappa]

Just sillyness... Perhaps the scare would send some away.. But its just hype...

Personnaly I'd worry more about Mesothelioma than radioactive materials..

I mean we can ALREADY say 2 dirty bombs have been exploded in america... Im sure the amounts of Asbestos released from OK city and the trade tower would be far more than any 'dirty bomb'... Asbestos is a heavy metal as well .....

[Horn]

Originally posted by Saintaw
nice, is that part of your constitution too ?

The law was just recently (70's) taken off the books -- as no one could EVER think of doing it again--like we did to the Japanese.

But we seem to be doing it again, nevertheless.....

h

[Maverick]

Kappa,

Those are 2 differant situations. Asbestos must be inhaled to be a problem. Radioactive materials are a hazard outside the body and the dosage is cumulative. Just because you don't get 2000 rads in a day doesn't mean that exposure over a period of time won't be a threat to your life. Twenty rads a day will add up over time and if the material has a long half life may render the property uninhabitable for decades unless they can somehow clean up the area and return it to mere background (normal) radiation condition.

FWIW I agree that asbestos IS a problem but thankfully has been recognized and steps are being taken to reduce the amount used around people. Dying of lung disease ain't pretty and I've watch family members suffer through it until they passed away. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by Tuomio
But there is this problem with intensity. When you have only small amounts of stuff thrown over an big area, the effects will be next to zero.  Its another thing what the officials consider as being "contaminated" and how long it would be labelled as such.

Depleted uranium is not dangerous because its radioactive, but because its heavy metal. Just like lead. And i have read studies that claim lead dust being more hazardous than equal amounts of DU dust when inhaled.
Does materials from x-ray projectors act the same way? Im not claiming that dirty bombs would not be dangerous, its just that the amount of work that has to be done for building one does not yield the same impact than for example bioweapon would. Its overhyped.

See my edit on the Uranium powder, I meant Cesium, and read the scientific analysis I linked.

[kappa]

Originally posted by Maverick
Kappa,

Those are 2 differant situations. Asbestos must be inhaled to be a problem. Radioactive materials are a hazard outside the body and the dosage is cumulative. Just because you don't get 2000 rads in a day doesn't mean that exposure over a period of time won't be a threat to your life. Twenty rads a day will add up over time and if the material has a long half life may render the property uninhabitable for decades unless they can somehow clean up the area and return it to mere background (normal) radiation condition.

FWIW I agree that asbestos IS a problem but thankfully has been recognized and steps are being taken to reduce the amount used around people. Dying of lung disease ain't pretty and I've watch family members suffer through it until they passed away. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Rad elements are leathel outside the body in very large quanities... Asbestos dosage is cumulative as well... 8)

[Boroda]

Originally posted by capt. apathy
Boroda, the imediate threat to life is about where you state it.  but that doesn't mean it won't kill you next year or 5 years from now.  every year they are finding the damage is worse than previously thought.

I read the curent regs this past summer and they allow 1/5th of the amount of exposure per year as I was allowed to take in 2 months just 13 years before.

and this is just speaking of exposure, not contamination, 2 completely different subjects.

exposure is radioactive energy passing through you, contamination is putting the source inside your body and continually taking exposure from that source until it either passes though your system or depletes.

and unless you are talking about sunshine, no amount of radiation is 'good for you'

Well, after an explosion of "dirty bomb", if you are not killed by the detonation, all you have to do is to use your handkerchief as a filter and try to get away from the place ASAP.

Personal decontamination will mean taking good shower. Maybe shaving your body hair. Every standard Army medical kit contains Potassium Iodide as an anti-radiation (anti-contamination?) pills. You can get it in any drug-store here as well. Contamination is dangerous when you have to work/fight at the "hot zone" for a significant amount of time and can't get cleaned or withdraw.

Decontamination of the place will include carefull washing of the streets/walls, removing the upper soil layer and the trees/grass. Closed windows and doors will protect your home from being contaminated from inside. It's easy.

Chemical attack is much more dangerous. Some agents can't be stopped even by insulated suits and closed-circle oxygen gas-masks. You can't simply wash away the mustard gas from your skin, and during the last 85 years they invented so many poisons that mustard gas is nothing compared to them.

As for radiation being good for your health - believe me, I work at Biochemical Physics Institute, Russian Academy of Science, and my former department worked on small doses problem.

All this "dirty bomb" hype is just a scarecrow, created using basic rules: people are afraid of the unknown, and the mysterious radiation danger is extremely hard to understand, also connected to the common fear of nuclear weapons. 90% of the people can't explain what makes radiation so dangerous and what is it's "killing mechanism".

[capt. apathy]

Well, after an explosion of "dirty bomb", if you are not killed by the detonation, all you have to do is to use your handkerchief as a filter and try to get away from the place ASAP.

I think this stratagy was implemented right after "duck and cover" went out of style.

most handkerchiefs are not rated HEPA-filter, and would deffinatly not be up to the job, any particles that passed through it would likely be small enough to be perminantly lodged in the lungs and with you for life.

I've been de-con'd for rad-contamination, it aint pretty, not that easy and it doesn't get everything.  and tomorrow they'll find out that what you breathed in today is worse than they thought.

I was lucky and was having a headcold at the time, all my contamination managed to get hung up in my nose. try being stripped and having three guys hold you down while some rad-tech swabs out your sinusus with a 6" q-tip.  it gives a whole new meaning to "permisable exposure levels"

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by Boroda
Well, after an explosion of "dirty bomb", if you are not killed by the detonation, all you have to do is to use your handkerchief as a filter and try to get away from the place ASAP.

Personal decontamination will mean taking good shower. Maybe shaving your body hair. Every standard Army medical kit contains Potassium Iodide as an anti-radiation (anti-contamination?) pills. You can get it in any drug-store here as well. Contamination is dangerous when you have to work/fight at the "hot zone" for a significant amount of time and can't get cleaned or withdraw.

Decontamination of the place will include carefull washing of the streets/walls, removing the upper soil layer and the trees/grass. Closed windows and doors will protect your home from being contaminated from inside. It's easy.

Chemical attack is much more dangerous. Some agents can't be stopped even by insulated suits and closed-circle oxygen gas-masks. You can't simply wash away the mustard gas from your skin, and during the last 85 years they invented so many poisons that mustard gas is nothing compared to them.

As for radiation being good for your health - believe me, I work at Biochemical Physics Institute, Russian Academy of Science, and my former department worked on small doses problem.

All this "dirty bomb" hype is just a scarecrow, created using basic rules: people are afraid of the unknown, and the mysterious radiation danger is extremely hard to understand, also connected to the common fear of nuclear weapons. 90% of the people can't explain what makes radiation so dangerous and what is it's "killing mechanism".

Read "Example 1, Example 2, and Example 3" written by SCIENTISTS that show what effects there would be before making such assinine comments.
http://www.fas.org/faspir/2002/v55n2/dirtybomb.htm

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Ripsnort
Read "Example 1, Example 2, and Example 3" written by SCIENTISTS that show what effects there would be before making such assinine comments.
http://www.fas.org/faspir/2002/v55n2/dirtybomb.htm

Did you read it yourself?

Cars emit more radioactive char then that "dirty bombs".

A swath about one mile long covering an area of forty city blocks would exceed EPA contamination limits, with remaining residents having a one-in-ten thousand chance of getting cancer.

Stay afraid if want. This ensures better fundings for our scientific research. Long live paranoia.

I have a good view on a nuclear reactor from my window at work. I wear wrist-watch with digits that glow in the dark. And I smoke. This is my own personal dirty bomb.