Author Topic: Play balance  (Read 1039 times)

Offline TheBug

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Play balance
« on: December 18, 2003, 08:00:30 PM »
"Play Balance"  just what is play-balance to the CT staff?  Some staffers are keen to throwing out the word yet they never have any numbers/statistics or reasons for what they do.   Take a look at the stats for the BoF setup, particularly the 110 and the Ju88.  Now I'm not saying I didn't enjoy that setup, because I did.  I'm also not saying take those planes out of the setup, even though in my opinion they should be(including Spit).

But I am having trouble finding the "play-balance" in that one.  Maybe if the staffer's threw out a little more reasoning behind their beliefs, or even possibly run a couple of the different planesets to generate new numbers and either learn something or prove their point.  Put the C-hog in, enlighten us for one week.  Take the 110 out, show us how weak the Luftwaffe would be.

But no they're not going to do that, they make no effort to compromise.

Vote TheBug  :aok

I have also contacted HTC in regards to the CT staff. I was told as long as there are numbers in the CT they pretty much let the staff do what they want.  Short of boycotting the CT not much is going to change there.
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Offline brady

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Play balance
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2003, 08:31:05 PM »
Play balance is prety much as simple as it sounds, set ups are created using historical criteria, and from their using the available planes, then we consider the Balance issue and debate the set up, Typicaly play balance is given the most weight increating a set up.


  Some set up's are less balanced then others and the Balance in any set up is obviously the subject for much debate. Many things have been tryed in the time the CT has been up and runing, in fact many of the things players ask about trying have indead been done in the past, those that we avoid repeating are the ones that met with bad results.


  Most of the reasioning questions are invarably answered howeaver they are not always answered to the satisfaction of some, regreatably when a set is reran many of the same old questions arise and often the answers remain the same.

  Some set up's are also rarely if ever ran again, those are obviously the ones that met with bad results.


 Everything in the CT is a compromise, regreatably not every compromise is one everyone would have or agree with.


 Each Staffer is responsable for his own set up they bear sole responsabality for it's content, If I had my choice each CT player would be very Happy with each set up I  make or sponser, howeaver I am aware that this is not, nor shall it ever be the case.

 As a CT Staffer I nead to make dischions on the content of the set up's, I beleave first and formost in creating "Balanced " set up's ones that offer a good fighting chance on all sides, everything is considered in this endevore, granted we dont always get it right the first go around but over time we have goten better at it on the whole, this has in part contributed to the increased numbers the CT has in it on the whole, their are other contrubuting factors of cours, the larger AH player base is likely the bigest single factor.

Offline TheBug

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Play balance
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2003, 10:34:03 PM »
I understand what play-balance is very well.  But just to help me see your side of the story, explain the 110 and the Ju88s presence(unrestricted) in the Battle of France setup and how that benefits and does not hinder play-balance, please.

Stats for that week show otherwise.  And I DO REPEAT I am not asking for them to be removed from any future BoF or BoB setups, I am just using them as an example to discuss play-balance.


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Offline brady

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Play balance
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2003, 01:32:01 AM »
JU 88: While it caried a load almost 3 times as large as the Boston, all the Allied planes could easly intercept it including the Boston (the Huricane was a bit slow though).

 Boston: Under about 6K this plane is faster than the Fighters that apose it so in comparasion to the JU 88 it has a better chance to reach the Target relative to the fighters that apose it.

 So on the Bomber issue it was decided to go with them both unrestricted, it was felt both would not cause any huge problems and the relative strengths and weaknesses countered each other to a degree. Clearly not Ideal but a rare instance when the Axis have a slight edge in ordance delevery in this area.


 Bf 110: The last time I ran this the thinking was that while the 110 was faster than the compation it's pair of week 20mm's and MG's coupled with it's horable handeling and the relative strengths of the fighters it aposed namely toughfness and turaning abality would lessen the impact of it's spead advantage. To further reduce the potential uberness the spead advantage posed Spits were included in the set up, while their was little historical precedance to do so ( the spits dident realy fight over France in 1940), it was a balance choice to add them at a few bases. After the set up ran I decided that if I ever did run it again I would put more spit bases in. So this time around I did put more in, realy it was a catch 22, if added in full then the Brits would have the fastest and best turning plane a Bad combo for a set up balance wise, on the flip side the Germans had the faster plane and the worst handeling for the most part in the set up just ran (except whear the spits were), again clearly not ideal.


 So in summery to sight from above:

"Some set up's are less balanced then others and the Balance in any set up is obviously the subject for much debate"


From Tour 21:

110/Huricane MK 1: 423/292
110/P40B: 161/121
110/Spit MK I: 11/20
110/Boston: 177/20
109E-4/Boston: 215/27
JU 88/Huricane : 59/53
JU 88/ Spit MK I: 3/2
JU 88 P40B 26/39


 Over all:

 The Boston III has 217 kills and has been killed 818 times.
 
The Ju 88 has 293 kills and has been killed 633 times.


 Stats are typicaly interesting to look at but never tell the whole story, they are not nescessearly a good source for determing playbalance.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2003, 02:06:42 AM by brady »

Offline TheBug

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« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2003, 06:11:03 PM »
Thanks for taking the time for that answer Brady.  

So I guess my point is in order to continue along the play-balance and CT player/staff interaction, why not make a couple changes from the normal setup every now and then and then discuss with the players each week.  Can't hurt to tweak the setups every now and then, either to improve the setup and/or makeit clear to the players that there is a reason why a plane was included or left out.  Just don't set up each and counter any complaints/ideas with a blank "play-balance"

Btw stats hold a little more water if you look a little closer.  Try looking at the Boston/Ju88 stats and only include the planes that opposed them in BoF.   Maybe the stats tell more of a story than you care to admit or are capable of recognizing.
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Offline brady

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« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2003, 07:28:10 PM »
Often explanations are given but not heard by all, and I do get tierd of restating things over and over at times, but that does go with the teratory.



 The Bomber Stats show that Bostons were frequently used as evidanced by the higher number killed compared to the JU 88. Somthing they dont realy show is the large number of sucide Boston runs and the effects that a formation aircraft has on KD ratios when their used this way, basicaly handing out kills from tag and bag intercepts, bostons were also the only viable atack platform the Allies realy had thus increasing it's use. This is whear stats can be misleading.

 Set up's are normaly tweaked somewhat each time they are ran (at least mine are) The BoF was tweaked in that more spit fields were added and ASW fixed a slew of map related isues discovered the first time it was ran, the front was also adjusted to effect the best posable bases density which differed slightly from the first run of it. The Okinawa set up has had several changes made to it as another example over the course of it's use in the CT.

  We always try and post the upcoming set up mid week so players have a chance to comment on it prour to it being ran and their coments are alwyas considered both priour to and during a set up run, not just by me but all the staff. The CT staff wants the players to give their input thats why we are as example hear discusing this at present.

 I try very hard to answer any questions regarding my set up's, as to wheather or not the answers will be clear or understood by all is somthing I try and do but I regreatably cant suxcead in all cases, in the Areana I am apt to be more abrupt in answering questions and always prefer to do so hear. If I have simply explaned somthing away as "play Balance" it may of been because I already explaed it in depth elswhear .

"care to admit or are capable of recognizing"

 This Sh!~t is not somthing that is not at all helpfull Bug, I am trying to be nice hear, somtiems I dont even respond to some players beyond a certain point.

Offline Arlo

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Play balance
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2003, 07:48:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by brady
Often explanations are given but not heard by all, and I do get tierd of restating things over and over at times, but that does go with the teratory.
 


Often feedback is given but not heard by Brady so instead of reacting to the feedback on even a theoretical level it's easier for Brady to just use the same rationalization over and over and pretend that everyone else is being deliberately obtuse. That way there's less danger of having to try anything differently thereby possibly invalidating the rationalization. :) ;) :aok

Offline TheBug

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« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2003, 07:53:52 PM »
""care to admit or are capable of recognizing"

This Sh!~t is not somthing that is not at all helpfull Bug, I am trying to be nice hear, somtiems I dont even respond to some players beyond a certain point."


Not helpful to you? or not helpful to the CT in general??  Some may choose to differ with you on that.

Once again I stated my opinion, no matter how upsetting it may be to an individual in charge, it was done without profanity or name calling.  But yet again it was replied to with profanity,  for yet again another example of unprofessionalism.


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Offline scJazz

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« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2003, 12:25:00 AM »
Brady... honestly... come on now man. We did the whole CHog thing. Everyone talked about it.

First you said it was too good at JABO. So I proved that you were wrong on that score. Then you said it was too fast and I showed that it is the same spd at the DHog and not nearly as quick as the P47. Then you called the CHog "uber" and I laughed and pointed out how "uber" the facelift from the turn on a dime N1K can be. Then you just said "LALALALALALA not listening!!! Not going to include it no matter what anyone says."

You honestly expect any of us to believe that you listen and tweak stuff? Please give us a break. I can't remember a single instance where you changed even one iota of anything in one of your setups. EVER.

This is the part where you say something like...

"Well I've been doing setups for so long that I don't need to tweak anything because I've gotten everything perfect at this point."

Right if it were perfect then how did your Okinawa setup generate like 150 messages on this board in less than 1 week.

Offline scJazz

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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2003, 12:27:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by TheBug
Maybe the stats tell more of a story than you care to admit or are capable of recognizing.


Bug don't be grabbing the moral high ground because Brady cussed at you. In your statement above you implicitly call him stupid. You were doing just fine until then.

Offline brady

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« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2003, 12:51:43 AM »
Jazz I listed the changes that have occured to the Okinawa setup and the France set up, wheather they were observaions of mine or others bringing them to my atention is imeaterial they were changes brought about to better the set up. If you missed the posts whear I detailed this then I am sry they did ocure. Clearly they may well of not been ones that you would have had  me make, so it is posble you did not notice them occuring. I have no idea how long you have been playing AH and realy it is not that big a deal if you have a point it is a point no mater how long you have been playing, howeaver much may have hapened priour to your time in AH set up wise and some of that (most) has effected how I view set up's and make dischions for them.

 A 150 post thread that has a half dozen of the ushual suspects as the primary contributers is nothing new for a PAC set up, and It ran all week with good numbers, like it has every time I have ran it, both it and the Guadacanal set up consistantly have been the best PAC set up's number's wise we have ran.

On the Chog issue we simply differed in our openion this is not new for this set up, I herd you and others asking for it but like you said above non of the reasion given for wanting it justified me adding it, simple diferance of openion sry bud it will happen again I am shure.

Offline TheBug

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« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2003, 09:04:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by scJazz
Bug don't be grabbing the moral high ground because Brady cussed at you. In your statement above you implicitly call him stupid. You were doing just fine until then.


Implicitly stupid??  Ignorant would more likely be the term, I implicitly did NOT call him stupid.  There is a difference and I would be more than willing to point that out for you if you need help.
“It's a big ocean, you don't have to find the enemy if you don't want to."
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Offline scJazz

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« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2003, 09:52:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by TheBug
Implicitly stupid??  Ignorant would more likely be the term, I implicitly did NOT call him stupid.  There is a difference and I would be more than willing to point that out for you if you need help.


OK you evidently need some help... you did not explicitly call him stupid. You did implicitly call him stupid. Now your trying to imply that I need help understanding English while making it seem like you are not being offensive.

There hopefully since I used the word and its' antonym a couple of different ways you can understand it. <--- See using same technique that you did to imply that you are stupid. Fun isn't it?

Offline scJazz

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« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2003, 10:10:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by brady
Jazz I listed the changes that have occured to the Okinawa setup


Brady you first ran Okinawa on 05/30/03. The only tweak I see is adding the FM2 to land bases. Other than that everything about this setup is exactly the same as the first time it was run. Your MOTD even contains the same mis-spellings.

Offline TheBug

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« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2003, 10:28:51 AM »
I am not implying anything, I am telling you, you do not understand English.


 
ig·no·rant [ ígnərənt ]
 
adjective  
 
1. lacking knowledge: lacking knowledge and education in general or in a specific subject

 
2. unaware: unaware of something
ignorant of the danger

 
3. resulting from lack of knowing: caused by a lack of understanding or experience
an ignorant mistake

 
4. Caribbean quarrelsome: quarrelsome and aggressive

 

 
 ig·no·rant·ly adverb
 
 


Now you Jazz on the other hand are stupid.  Do I need to explain this in simpler terms for you.



stu·pid [ stpəd ] (comparative stu·pi·der, superlative stu·pi·dest)
 
adjective  
 
1. unintelligent: thought to show a lack of intelligence, perception, or common sense
a stupid mistake

 
2. silly: irritatingly silly or time-wasting
had us playing stupid games

 
3. expressing irritation: used to express anger, annoyance, or frustration ( informal )
I can’t get the stupid thing to work!

 
4. dazed: in a dazed state, for example, from shock, fatigue, or from the effects of drugs or alcohol
almost stupid with tiredness
“It's a big ocean, you don't have to find the enemy if you don't want to."
  -Richard O'Kane