Author Topic: Favorite plane (Read 2892 times)

Dead Man Flying · « **Reply #45 on:** December 26, 2003, 08:13:40 PM »

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Originally posted by Urchin
I find it interesting that people still insist the plane has absolutely no impact on the fight. Truly, it boggles my mind. Is a spitfire/N1K2 easier to get a kill in than.. I dunno... a 190A5 or a C205? Absolutely. I personally can't understand how anyone could fail to see that. Yet some people do fail to see it.

The type of plane is but one of many variables that determines the outcome of a fight; it is hardly the most important.

Incidentally, the original comment made by Wldthing and recognized by me was in response to Raptor saying, "[Spits] require little or no skill to get a kill... thats why they might be called trainer planes, for the begginers... sure you get more kills with them, but the kills dont mean anything to me unless i had to work for it. I get my fun out of the challenge."

What a hilariously ignorant rant. You don't "work" for kills in a Spitfire? The Spit V probably requires as much if not more work than just about any plane in the game in order to achieve a kill. Why? It's slow, very slow. Sure, it can dodge BnZ attacks more easily than, say, a 190A5. But dodging requires work. Setting up enemies, maintaining speed, hiding energy, trying to keep faster planes from bugging out... these all require a lot of work. In a co-alt, co-E engagement against just about any plane save some of the earliest war stuff, the Spit V rarely enjoys the luxury of disengaging and taking a break. It has got to get that kill quickly or, often, not at all.

You seem to be thinking in merely dogfighting terms. If I were to fight you in a 190A5 vs. Spit IX, what's to stop me from just pushing the nose down and running on the merge? Suddenly all of the advantages you mentioned... don't matter.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Urchin · « **Reply #46 on:** December 26, 2003, 08:35:10 PM »

Well.. the way I look at it is this- The goal is to kill enemy planes. Sure, if you are in a Spit 9 and I am in a 190a5.. I can run from you all day. But the second we actually start to fight- I've either got to get the kill in the first 5 seconds or so, or I'm going to get killed. Even if I chose to bore and zoom as timidly as I possibly could, eventually the Spit will equalize the energy states, and once that happens the 190 is dogmeat.

Raptor · « **Reply #47 on:** December 26, 2003, 09:45:17 PM »

Spend a little time in H2H land, you will see more of a difference than MA. MA its get the kill when you can how you can, H2H its more relaxed. Your saying it requires skill for the whole flight, landing and everything. I am talking about same alt and same E and only for the fight. If a spit gets behind a less agile plane and both pilots are equally good the spit does not have to worry about getting the kill right away, unless other enemies are in the area.
Say it was spitV vs 190a5. 190 would have full trim, managing its throttle and rudder and still could not shake the spit that has only changed throttle so not to pass the 190. See what I mean by it requires less skill?

Drunky · « **Reply #48 on:** December 26, 2003, 09:55:35 PM »

I'm loving the FM2 right now.

Urchin · « **Reply #49 on:** December 27, 2003, 01:20:57 AM »

Going to add a little Widewingesque commentary to emphasize my point.

I've been flying the 190a5 a lot this tour. I'm 98-11 in it. Thats a pretty decent record for me. I'd say my average kill tally per sortie is probably around 3, maybe 3.5.

I spent the day flying the N1K2. I look at the Niki as a super 190a5. It is about the same speed, but it does everything else better. I flew 6 or 7 sorties (don't remember exactly, but I know I landed 2, died 3, and ditched once.. so I'm thinking 6). My record for the N1K2 for the day was 63-3. Once was a cherry-pick, two were spits that blew the tail off with a snapshot. One of the sorties was a pretty decent vulchfest, I think I ended up with 18 or 19 kills that sortie (about half of em were vulches). One of em was a really outstanding A2A sortie with 17 or 18 kills. The rest of em were the "average" 5-7 (which is still about twice as good as my 'average' 190a5) kill variety, with the exception of the cherrypick sortie.. I only got 5 that time.

Anyway, the Niki is just about the same plane as a 190a5.. you can fly them the exact same way. Only difference is the Niki has about twice the firepower, and it turns really well (and it is great low speed handling). So if you happen to get bounced by a high Spit while you are in a Niki... you've got a MUCH better shot at surviving. If you happen to get ganged by 2 or 3 guys... you have a MUCH better chance of surviving. You aint gonna run away from much in a 190a5 (not in the MA anyway.. in a 1v1 you could get away from the slower planes), nor in the Niki... but you have a helluva lot more chances to kill the people fighting you if you are in a niki (or a spit) than if you were in a 190.

You might think the plane isnt the most important variable... I'll have to respectfully disagree. After all... why did you chose the Spit 5? Why not the 109f4 (or 109e4 if you really want to be a masochist)... or the 202, or the P40, or any of the other slow "early war" planes. I can make a guess, no idea if it will be right or not though. You picked the Spit 5 because it has enough firepower to kill reliably with the most fleeting of snapshots, it accelerates well enough to keep up with the "late war" planes in a dive, and it has the most outstanding handling of that "class" of planes. I realize you may not care that much, but you could prove me right just by flying the 109F4 for a day. Fly it the same way you'd fly your Spit 5, and you wouldnt have anywhere near the same amount of success you have in the Spit. Hell, you could even fly it the way it was "meant" to be flown, and you wouldnt have much success in it- because the N1K2 and Spit 9 utterly dominate the 109F4, and make it pretty much useless. The spit 5 can at least out-turn the niki and spit 9, unless there is a horrible pilot in the spit 5.

Actually, maybe thats why we disagree. You fly a plane that is considered "inferior" to the "top of the line" planes.. but your plane still has one advantage that a "good" pilot can take advantage of (at least against a "bad" pilot)... I fly a plane that is completely inferior in every way to 3 of the "big 4". Something to think about anyway.

Cooley · « **Reply #50 on:** December 27, 2003, 01:58:36 AM »

F6F Hellcat
The Workhorse...enough said
(was also fav in Wb)

and of course th '38 as its the 367th's Historical ride, gotta fly it

http://www.367thfightergroup.com/~vtrump/367hist.htm

Hazard69 · « **Reply #51 on:** December 27, 2003, 09:52:58 AM »

originally posted by Raptor1

Spend a little time in H2H land, you will see more of a difference than MA. MA its get the kill when you can how you can, H2H its more relaxed. Your saying it requires skill for the whole flight, landing and everything. I am talking about same alt and same E and only for the fight. If a spit gets behind a less agile plane and both pilots are equally good the spit does not have to worry about getting the kill right away, unless other enemies are in the area.

I completely disagree...oh not about the 190 pilot needing more skill. I disagree tht H2H is more relaxed....

Since H2H terrains are usually smaller tht means most of the time u end up engaging the enemy at relatively lower altitudes...5k to 15k....that instantly makes the spits, niks and Lalas more deadly...and saps away some of the advantage tht planes like 109s or 190s or even the P47s hold against them....
Not saying that these planes suck...in fact in RL a P51 was a much better plane than a Spit, because there was time to climb up to good alts and then engage or rund depening on situations.
But try engaging a spit9 coalt and nearly coe in a P38 at 15k? Not as easy as if it were at 25k is it?

The plane is one of the most important aspects of winning fights....but i have killed spits in a P38 at 10k:aok and have been killed in a nik by a P47 at 5k:o ???
End result ........a good pilot can win in a bad plane against a bad pilot in a good plane.

Sure u have to be really good for tht but thts the whole point and thats why we choose to fly the harder planes.....the thrill is in the challenge not the kill.

WldThing · « **Reply #52 on:** December 27, 2003, 10:19:59 AM »

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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
What a hilariously ignorant rant. You don't "work" for kills in a Spitfire? The Spit V probably requires as much if not more work than just about any plane in the game in order to achieve a kill. Why? It's slow, very slow. Sure, it can dodge BnZ attacks more easily than, say, a 190A5. But dodging requires work. Setting up enemies, maintaining speed, hiding energy, trying to keep faster planes from bugging out... these all require a lot of work. In a co-alt, co-E engagement against just about any plane save some of the earliest war stuff, the Spit V rarely enjoys the luxury of disengaging and taking a break. It has got to get that kill quickly or, often, not at all.

Amen.

Widewing · « **Reply #53 on:** December 27, 2003, 11:10:14 AM »

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Originally posted by Raptor01
-The Lightning also accounted for more Japanese aircraft destroyed in combat than any other US fighter.

This stat is true only for USAAF fighters. Grumman's F6F shot down twice as many Japanese aircraft as all USAAF fighters COMBINED !

My regards,

Widewing

Sway · « **Reply #54 on:** December 27, 2003, 12:01:23 PM »

What other planes did the Hellcat encounter besides A6m's?

Widewing · « **Reply #55 on:** December 27, 2003, 01:01:22 PM »

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Originally posted by Sway
What other planes did the Hellcat encounter besides A6m's?

Every IJN type, and they flew extensive sorties over Japan itself during the last 4 to 5 months of the war. Encounters with Japanese Army fighters were common as the war moved closer to Japan. Ki-43, Ki-44, Ki-84, Ki-100, Ki-61, JM2 and even N1K2's were engaged as well as the usual A6Ms.

Total kill stats against Japan are as follows.

F6F: 5,156
P-38: 1,703

My regards,

Widewing

Sway · « **Reply #56 on:** December 27, 2003, 01:02:45 PM »

Awesome, thanks for that info Widewing. Glad to see p38 is up there on that list.

Dead Man Flying · « **Reply #57 on:** December 27, 2003, 08:15:41 PM »

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Originally posted by Urchin
Well.. the way I look at it is this- The goal is to kill enemy planes. Sure, if you are in a Spit 9 and I am in a 190a5.. I can run from you all day. But the second we actually start to fight- I've either got to get the kill in the first 5 seconds or so, or I'm going to get killed.

[/B]

This is where you're wrong. The 190A5 enjoys the luxury of pressing or not pressing the fight. He can be as aggressive or tame as he wishes. Once he chooses to engage aggressively and fails to obtain the kill within a couple of seconds, he can bug out and set up again under more favorable conditions. In any event, it's almost always his choice as to when to commit to the five second window of opportunity. The Spit IX does not enjoy such luxuries in an otherwise equal engagement.

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Even if I chose to bore and zoom as timidly as I possibly could, eventually the Spit will equalize the energy states, and once that happens the 190 is dogmeat.

Against equal pilots, the Spit IX would never equalize E states; the 190A5 would reserve the option of egressing once the Spit IX began equalizing anything.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Dead Man Flying · « **Reply #58 on:** December 27, 2003, 08:19:36 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Raptor01
Say it was spitV vs 190a5. 190 would have full trim, managing its throttle and rudder and still could not shake the spit that has only changed throttle so not to pass the 190. See what I mean by it requires less skill?

So now you're presenting a situation where the Spit V holds all the advantages including position and speed? It sounds to me like the 190A5 has more problems than plane type in that situation. The Spit V in a similar predicament with the roles reversed would be toast as well against equal pilots.

Do you often make a point of comparing plane attributes based on how well they perform on your six? Methinks plane type is not the issue whatsoever.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Urchin · « **Reply #59 on:** December 28, 2003, 12:28:22 AM »

See, thats where I think you are wrong. The Spit 9 is one of the best planes for E fighting, in my opinion. It climbs great, it has great high speed handling, and it retains energy pretty well.

I've fought 109g10 vs spit 9, and the spit 9, given enough time, will equalize the E states to the point where it can follow the 109 down when the 109 decides to run, and hose it out of the sky before the 109 can pull out of range. The 109g10 is a much superior E-fighting plane than the 190a5 is. Besides which.. the 190a5 can't be as aggressive as he wants. He has 2 choices- be completely passive and not fight at all, or be completely aggressive and try to bleed off a LOT more speed than the spit and hit the one shot you'll get when he overshoots. If he is stupid and goes nose to nose once he overshoots... if he just continues his turn you'll die. If you don't bleed off enough speed initially, you'll die. If you do everything right, but take one hizoo... hispano round to the tail as the spit flashes past, you'll die. There is no middle ground.