Favorite plane

[moot]

you understood what I said...

going to fly nothing but spit5 for a moment.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Sway
Awesome, thanks for that info Widewing.  Glad to see p38 is up there on that list.

This might make you happy too.  The majority of the USAAF aces in the Pacific flew the P-38.



ack-ack

[Raptor]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Maybe one day it will dawn on you that it's not the plane but the pilot.  After all a plane only does what the pilot tells it to do.

My point is that if a spit catches  a less agile plane at co alt and same E it will out turn the enemy withought having to use trim, rudder or anything a more expierienced pilot uses. Again if say a 190 was expierienced and using everything to help him turn better he would still not turn with the spit not using any of it. If the 190 merged and got behind the spit, it would only be there a few seconds before the spit out turned it and was on the 190's six. Then you are saying if 190 was a better pilot it would not stay and fight the spit, that is true. I am just saying that the spit doesnt require as much skill to out turn most other planes.

[nopoop]

Rapter you need to spend a tour flying a 190 or 51/F4U, directlly followed by a tour of flyin Spitty 5's and FM2's.

Then report back. Your not seeing the whole picture.

My two rides are a 1-D and a Spit 5. Ones an E plane, ones a turner with E alternatives.

I "might"  be average in both rides on a good day..

Your falling in on the excuse that the grass is always greener in the other ride..

I used to do that.

Tain't so.

It's the pilot.

In almost seven years of flying my "average" REGARDLESS of plane flown is about the same.

Who'd thunk it.

It's not the plane, it's the geometry in your head with the givin attributes of the plane you fly, and that of your opponent in each and every situation. All calculated with your assessment of the necessary action required on your part given the current situation.

No shortcuts.

There are none.

I know you wish there was.

There isn't.

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Raptor01
I am just saying that the spit doesnt require as much skill to out turn most other planes.

And?  It's not surprising that a better turning plane outturns a worser turning plane.  Does it surprise you that a P-51 is faster than a Spit, or that a P-38 performs better in the vertical, or that an La7 accelerates better, or that a 109G10 climbs better?

All of these things require less skill in those planes than in a Spit too.  These are their strengths; turning in a Spit is its strength.  Now take the fight into the climbing vertical against a P-38 and tell me that the P-38 requires less skill to do what it does best.

Unsurprisingly, successful players often fly to the strengths of their planes.  How unskillful of them!

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Cobra412]

I'd have to agree with Leviathn here.  I fly the Mk IX exclusively for Air to Air engagements.  It gets rather annoying hearing folks say the Spitfire is a dweeb plane.  

Yes a majority of the time we can evade a BnZ'er.  But that is only because we are using the aircrafts strengths to our advantage.  We gain another chance after every successful evasive maneuver.  But we lose Alt almost immediately and we have to once again setup for the defensive if we get pressed again.  During these 10 to 15 seconds we've only regained our previous state in altitude, energy and position. Which basically means at no time did we gain anything on the agressor but another chance to fight again.

There are very few 1 on 1 situations in the MA anymore.  When flying the Spitfire that isn't a good thing.  It's more often than not I encounter atleast 2 to three far superior aircraft together just looking for a fight.  Energy fighting against the Spitfire is almost always a way for you to survive.  We don't have the speed or acceleration that many aircraft have.  We have to use angles to defeat our opponents and quick precise maneuvering.  Snap rolling quickly enough to avoid a bandit on our six and come around for shot isn't as easy as it seems.  By the time your back lined up they're atleast 250 in front of you and accelerating away very rapidly.  That gives you less than a second  to get off  lethal shot.  This is very often the situation when a set of pilots are winging together and pressing you.

Why do I fly the Spitfire.  Because in almost any situation I have a 50/50 chance of surviving.  I may not get the kill but I'll stay alive to engage someone else who will have  more patience to deal with me.  If they don't and make a mistake then I've won the duel.  Thats the whole point of flying is it not?  I've just learned to use the planes abilities and not exceed them to the point of making a mistake.  If that makes me a dweeb then so be it.  Atleast I'm not whining when I've made a mistake in superior aircraft and get myself killed only to cry out "spitdweeb" or "dweebfire" on channel 1.

[Wilbus]

Okay. Now jump the 190 at 10k or 15k and see how its odds of survival increase once pure turnfighting becomes less important to the dodging, surviving, and odds turning equation.

Sure, it can run. But so can a spit 5, it only have to dive to the deck and as the spit accelerates far better the E state will soon be equal in the dive and than the fight is in the spits favor again.

[Sikboy]

Am I the only person who dies every time I take up a Spit V?


I count Both Levi and Montezuma as friends, and both have talked up the Spit V, so I've given it a go. And every time I die die die. Sure, sometimes I get a kill or two, but it's just so slow, and I can never adapt my thinking to the "88 eyes" turn and burn of the furball. I always end up trying to E fight in the thing and because of it's slow speed, I cant regenerate my energy fast enough. For my style of flying the Spit V just doesn't work.

I'm much more effective in a 190D or 109G10 (though I prefer the Yak9u).  Although I do admit that I've only flown spits maybe 5 times in the MA.

-Sik

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Wilbus
Sure, it can run. But so can a spit 5, it only have to dive to the deck and as the spit accelerates far better the E state will soon be equal in the dive and than the fight is in the spits favor again.

Oh, really?  Well, let's take a look at the data to see if it backs up your claims.

According to the acceleration charts, at sea level the Spit V with or without WEP marginally outaccelerates the 190A5 from between 150mph to 210mph.  Above 210mph, the 190A5 without WEP outaccelerates the Spit V, and at all speeds the 190A5 with WEP handily outaccelerates the Spit V by close to 10% or greater.

Let's check out the true airspeed charts now.  It seems that at all altitudes the 190A5 enjoys about a 30-50mph speed advantage with or without WEP.  According to this chart the 190A5 also outrolls the Spit series at all speeds.

How again does the Spit V more easily equalize energy states by diving in this situation?

-- Todd/Leviathn

[WldThing]

Originally posted by Wilbus
Sure, it can run. But so can a spit 5, it only have to dive to the deck and as the spit accelerates far better the E state will soon be equal in the dive and than the fight is in the spits favor again.

Never happened to me    But then again,  i never see a point in running..  I rather fight in an unequal fight than an equal one.  The less vurnable you seem the easier they are to bag.

[GODO]

AH SpitV vs AH 190A5? SpitV outclimbs 190A5 between 5 and 18k, this advantage is much more clear wep off in both planes (and that is a good factor to calculate acceleration). If we add the fuel load factor, the advantage of the SpitV is notorious for the same range (SpitV 75% vs 190A5 100%). Take also in cosideration the excelent zoom capabilities of the spit compared to the poor zoomming of the 190A5. In a co E engangement most advantages to get the kill are at the spit side.

[Steve]

Raptor, you're right.. it is fairly easy to outturn most other planes in a spitV.
This is the spit's strength.. one of only a couple IMHO. In the Ma though, the spitV pilot usually has to deal w/ multiple bogies/attackers and cannot often dictate the fight(in other words, force everyone into a turnfight).

So as much as the spitV is adept at turning, this strength just isn't enough to make it a monster when compared to it's weaknesses.


 

[Sikboy]

This thread has convinced me that I'm not having fun.

In 2004 I'm going to change planes and tactics.

-Sik

[Raptor]

I agree it depends more on the pilot than the plane, just some planes have more advantages than others. The spitfire is weighed down by speed and thin armor, NIK by cardboard armor.

[Urchin]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Oh, really?  Well, let's take a look at the data to see if it backs up your claims.

According to the acceleration charts, at sea level the Spit V with or without WEP marginally outaccelerates the 190A5 from between 150mph to 210mph.  Above 210mph, the 190A5 without WEP outaccelerates the Spit V, and at all speeds the 190A5 with WEP handily outaccelerates the Spit V by close to 10% or greater.

Let's check out the true airspeed charts now.  It seems that at all altitudes the 190A5 enjoys about a 30-50mph speed advantage with or without WEP.  According to this chart the 190A5 also outrolls the Spit series at all speeds.

How again does the Spit V more easily equalize energy states by diving in this situation?

-- Todd/Leviathn

My argument isn't spit V vs 190a5.  I'm saying that there are basically two types of planes.  There are the "fast" planes, and there are the "turny" planes.  The La-7 and the P-51 are the best "fast" planes (for best read most advantages with fewest disadvantages), the N1K2 and the Spit 9 are the best "turny" planes.  I'm not even certain how (or even if) we are debating the merits of the Spit V.  But since we are,  I suppose I can try to put my argument a different way.  

Ok, you are tooling along at 15k in a 190a5 in the MA.  You run into a spit at 15k.  Doesn't matter if it is a spit 9 or a spit 5, for all intents and purposes.  You hit the merge, realize you are not going to make it around faster than the spit, so you decide to get out of dodge.  Lucky for you, it is Leviathns superior sucky spit 5, so you can dive away from it.  So, now you are in a 190a5 at 8k going 400 mph, with a spit 5 about 1.5 back (and losing ground pretty rapidly).  Right about as that spit hits 2.0 back, yet another spit shows up, dives on you, but cant quite catch you.  So you keep on running.  Now you are at 6k, with a spit 9 1.0k and holding, and a spit 5 about 3.5k back and still losing ground.  Low and behold, an La7 shows up.  He's way back there, just got into icon range at about your 8 o clock.  So, you've got about two minutes before he's pulling inside of 1,000 yards.  By that time, the Spit 9 is about 2k back, the spit 5 is probably just about out of icon range (but still heading your way), and now the La7 is 1000 yards out and closing fast.  What do you do?  

It is quite simple really.. you die.  You can't out turn any of the planes facing you, you can't run from the la7, and once you lose speed dodging the La-7s first pass, you cant run from the spit 9 anymore.  So, you haven't got a chance.  

So now, you tell me how the scenario is different if you are in a Spit 5?  

I can give it a guess, but that is all it will be.  This is pretty much how it worked for me when I was flying the N1K the other day, but I realize the Spit 5 is a lot harder to get kills in.  

You are tooling along in a spit 5 at 15k.  You run into another spit 5.  Right at the merge, it is apparent that the other guy is a fool that has no idea how to fight, and you get behind him after about 5 seconds and kill him.  So now you are tooling along at 12-13k (you'll usually lose a little bit of alt even in the briefest fight) and you run into another spit.  He has a slight alt advantage, but doesn't know what to do with it.  So, he goes to bounce you, overshoots.. tries to flat turn, and dies.  So.. now you are at 10k, you see an La-7 cruising along at 400 mph at 6k.  You dive on the La-7, the La-7 wets his pants and runs for the nearest ack.  

You'll have to make up the rest of the story from here, I'm bored.