What is the Deal with all this US stuff?

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]:
DMF, The B-29 couldn't do those figures with an atom bomb, both Fat man and Little boy cut her flight time by a third due to the wieght.

If the statistics listed here are accurate, Fat Man and Little Boy both weighed half of the maximum allowable bomb weight that the B-29 was capable of hauling to its standard range of 3000+ miles.  Both websites I listed earlier stated that the maximum bomb weight that B-29s could carry was 20,000 pounds.  Little boy was 8,900 pounds and Fat Man was 10,300 pounds.

-- Todd/DMF

[Karnak]

Pyro,

I don't think the percieved problem is so much with the US stuff, rather its the years of entry.

The US stuff is almost all from 1944, whereas, for example, all of the Spitfires and Hurricanes, more than half of the British planeset, are from 1942 or earlier, the Spitfire IX and Seafire are the worst examples of their type, non representative and, in the case of the Spit IX, mis modeled.

It seems to me that a more rounded US planeset could have been done, but I don't know all of the things you guys have to do to model these aircraft.

Certainly some things HAD to be US.  For example, AFAIK nobody else built usable amphibious units.

The planesets are getting filled out nicely now.

It seems to me that what remains is:

Early War, some mid war and a few perk US things. F4F, F4U-4, TBD, SBD, M4A3 Sherman, P-39, P-40, P-47M, P-61B, B-17E, B-24J, B-25 and B-29A.

Early war, some mid war and some late war British stuff. Spitfire MkIa, Hurricane MkI, Wellington or Blenheim, Beaufighter MkXXI, Fulmar MkI, Lancaster MkI, Mosquito B.IV, Mosquito FB.VI, Spitfire LF.MkVIII, Spitfire F.MkXIV.

Early war, some mid war and some late war and maybe some wonder weapon German stuff. Bf109E-3, Bf110C-4, Ju87D, He111, Ju52, Do217, He177, Bf110G-2, Ju87G, Me410A-1, Me163A, Panther V G, Tiger I and Tiger II.

Early war, some mid war and ground Russian stuff. I-16, MiG-3, Pe-2, Il-10, T-34/76, T-34/85 and IS-2.

Lots of Japanese stuff. Of the Big 5 combatants, the Japanese are by fare the worst represented.  I know that performance data is hardest to get for Japanese aircraft, but here are some that would be nice. A6M2, G4M2, B5N2,  Ki43, Ki44, Ki49, Ki61-Ia,, B6N2, D4Y1, Ki61-II, J2M3, H8K2, N1K1, P1Y1, B7A1, Ki67, Ki84-Ia, Ki100 and Ki102-Ib.

One to three more Italian units. S.M.79, G.55, Re.2005.

The version of the Brewster Buffalo used by the Finns.    

You of course have a better idea of what is required, particularly for the ground war, most of those are what I think would flesh out the planeset.

[ 08-18-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]

[SKurj]

If i were in your role Pyro... I'd concentrate on getting the big jobs done first (the new AC) and plug away at the easy mods (US AC versions) part time +)

The more countries represented,=  more players I believe

Just my thots +)

SKurj

[Vladd]

OK Pyro, I'm off to the history forum  

But before I go, I'm not criticising ANY of the aircraft additions in 1.08.  

If I would suggest anything for the future, if would be for more PAC stuff for scernarios and events. The Euro planeset is better represented at the present. A PAC version of Hostile Shores and more such events in the future would provide good publicity for HTC. I'd like to think it would be good business as a result, but I don't know this for a fact.

And yes, I know this request of course includes US rides just like the F4U-1  
I think it's a nice addition from this PoV.


Vladd

[GRUNHERZ]

Pyro my suggestion for good planes US or not are:

P39 a USA plane with interesting armament
 
P40 the type AVG flew or any model without the 6 50cal armament just to add some interest to USA planes

F4F the early types without wingfold

Lagg3

Re2005

Fiat G55

Also something for the spit guys that wont get perked 2 tours after introduction.

More bombers for the Axis, Sm79, Do217, He177, or some apporopriate Japanese twin.

A new earlier and less well armed Allied bomber, something like the Boston or Blenheim.

[Karnak]

GRUNHERTZ,

I don't know why you, and others, are so focused on the fiction that the Blenheim is the representative early war RAF bomber. It seems that this started with the introduction of the Ju88A-4, and has continued as an attempt to get some Allied airforce the crappiest bomber possible.

I think you'd find that the Blenhiem with a 1,000lb bombload and the Boston with a 2,000lb bomb load would never be used, even if they were the only Allied bombers available.

A far more representative early war RAF bomber would be the Wellington MkIc.  It is armed with 6 or 8 .303s and can carry a 4,000lb bomb load. This bomber is slow with a top speed of about 225mph.  It would be canon fodder in any time period.  A bomber has to be able to destry a hanger, anything less would be a joke.

[Hangtime]

Tell me what you'd do in my role and then I'll take your role as a customer.
 

As you I'd immediatly stick in a P51H, Mustang II & Mustang III, P47N, P38L, P40, B29 and B24J. To pacify the Luftwhiners I'd give em a Stuka and that rediculous three engine transport and maybe another useless FW or 109 variant. To make the IJN crowd happy I'd give em a Rufe and a Val. Maybe a Betty. Possibly a few battleships like Yammamoto. The brits I would give a Super Spit; the canadians a buncha plywood, glue and beer.

For the Italians.. a beautiful new building complex... Monte Cristo or maybe the Vatican.

As a customer, you could squeak and moan all yah want, and as you; I'd smile a lot, make regular trips to the bank, take a long vacation and give Yankee and Ronnie cruise tickets; and Supe and Nate a case of beer and a pat on the back.

But; that's just me.  

[Thrax]

For people who are (I'm guessing) WWII enthusiasts, there are some pig ignorant statements on this BBS. Learn your history before making such BS statements as XXX single handidly won the war.

The wars in both Europe and the Far East were won by an allied coalition. The British/Commonwealth held back the Japanese from over running India. Had that happened then Japanese forces could have (in theory) linked up with German forces. Now that WOULD have changed the course of the war.

The Atom bomb was built by a group of British and American scientists. Read Oppenhighmers book for more on that.

Russia accounted for about 75% of all casualties suffered by the Germans in WWII

When the Allies invaded Okinowa, did you know there was a British battle ship, 2 cruisers, 5 destroyers etc..etc...

The Australians were very active in Burma and held back the Japanese. Troops that could have been moved to  defend against the US had that front fallen.

By the same token, the British would have been starved out during the Battle of the Atlantic had it not been for US aid. And while it was Commenwealth not US troops who held back the Japanese tide, it was mainly US ground forces to did the recapturing (I said mainly but not all)

Could America alone have defeated the Germans and Japanese alone? No. In fact the only country that might have had a chance alone was Russia, but that's mainly due to the appaling winters and bad road networks.

And as a heads up. The most widly produced Allied plane wasnt British or American. It was Russian. The IL2.

Learn your history before posting ignorant sh*t. Or just get an education.

Thrax

[ 08-18-2001: Message edited by: Thrax ]

[pdog_109]

Well said Thrax, a bit to harsh but desereved. I was browsing trough a ww2 american book and it said US produced fanastic number of planes and compares US number which is highest in the book to British, German and Japanese which are all lower than US. Hmmm the author seemed to forget about Russia producing any number of planes during ww2, yet alone higher than US.
Shock US is not the best Propaganda book, obvisously affecting people. Thrax your wrong tough, the IL-2 wasn't the most produced the Po-2/U-2 (no not the american spy plane) was. And we all know what that is don't we?
Next Post:
Whats a Po-2?  

hehehe  

[Wotan]

Karnak I've been calling for a whimpy since The Afrika Korp Scenario.........

would be great addition to ah as well as a he-111.......................

I've read and seen pictures about wellingtons mostly in service in the med. Love to see it.

Were most wellingtons used in the med? If you have any good info on the whimpy please post..............

ps in the correct forum if ya don't mind  

[Pyro]

Thanks for the courtesy.  Why's it so hard to take a heated topic and put it in it's own thread and place instead of having to hijack existing ones?  Certainly topics drift, but we all clearly know when somethings getting hijacked.

[ 08-18-2001: Message edited by: Pyro ]

[brady]

Pyro

    As far as a bomber is concerned for Japan or Italy you obviously waited till you had one for everbody else first, and the US got 2, not one each like Brition and Germany' I am asuming that Russia is indead geting the  TU 2 (a realy cool medieum buff). Sombody had to be last, I know they take time to do the Buffs.

  As far as  Fighters are concerned Japan has only 3 fighters( Italy 2) 2 are very well suited to the MA the Ki 61 is a great plane but kinda lacking in performance for the 1944 MA, I know the CM's asked for it but hey I fly in the MA every day, why mot a Ki 84? or even a Ki 100?

 You asked what ftrs should of been omited Well why add more planes for Brition whean Japan only has 3 flyable planes ( I am bunching variants in hear( 3 spits) the Tempest and the Typhoon. Why not do One for Italy and Japan Instead of the F4u-1 and the Huricane.

 Also why do we have 3 varients of the P 47?
  Why not say 2 varients of the P 47 and 2 of the Zero.

 How about heavy fighters, everybody and His grandma want's one,  any would be cool, heck even a German one, a Me 410, ki 102, mossie,..

 Ground vehicals, I personaly like the AC idea it will be way fun, but why a US unit why not British, German? ( is it the AA gun.. PSW 234/1)

 When I whine that their are too many US units I am refering to everything Planes,tanks, ships, ect. it is hard not to do the math and wonder why the lopsided modeling of US units in general, unless it is simply ethnocentricity on the part of the consumer that is driving us hear.

 I would like to close by saying that I do lookforward to flying and or driving all our new toys the only "?" I have is why Has it been over a year and Japan and Italy have come out on the short end of the stick.

[GRUNHERZ]

Karnak, very simple I think the Blenheim looks neat, especially the early ones with the cool all glass nose!

As for the Boston, I think it looks cool too.


Anyway allies have many bomber choices and adding those two certainly wont hurt that in any way.

As for the wellington add that too. All Im saying not all Allied bombers were of the B26/17/Lanc class with high speed/load/or firepower.

[ra]

Brady,

If you are saying that each country should have an equal number of aircraft types, then you are irrational.  In WWII countries did not build equal numbers of aircraft.  Two US bombers v one British and one German probably reflects the numbers pretty well for late war.

The current planeset is biased toward late war, and almost all fighting is done in the MA.  Adding, for example, a Ki-43 would help balance the numbers you are so concerned with, but the Ki-43 would stay parked in the hangar next to the C.202.  The planeset is decently balanced for late war.  The Russians could use a couple of planes and the Japanese need a bomber, but for this stage in the development of the game it ain't bad.

The vehicle imbalance favors the Germans, who have 2 tanks, including the Ostie of which something like 50 were built.  Most of the US vehicles are geared toward field capture, not combat, and other countries have nothing at all.  It is not a US imbalance.

With the addition of the Combat Theater and the Hurricane II it is clear that the planeset is ready to expand beyond late war.
You picked a strange point in time to become impatient.

ra

[SKurj]

ra  brady has been lobbying for more non-US aircraft longer than anyone in AH, well perhaps he and Karnak are pretty even.
He isn't suggesting that every country have an even # of units, he is asking why is it the US keeps getting more units, when some countries recieve units quite rarely.  Japan recently got the Ki, Italy... (?)  Japan had a ton of different airframes in the war.  Granted many maybe difficult to get data on, but due to this fact, they should have better representation.  Italy, well the 202, and 205 may have been the mainstay of the italian airforces, better aircraft were produced, probably not in large #'s but there are a couple that may fit into the current late war MA, better than the current selections.
Bombers, we have 2 US, 1 British and 1 German bomber....  I don't think it is out of line to think that each country should be represented as close to equally in bomber types as possible.  Germany and US both have a medium, US and brits have a hvy.  Brits should get a medium, Germany, well the heaviest thing they had that actually did see service, and maybe useable in a scenario.  The italians P108? SM79 nuff said.  The russians are getting a decent machine soon, I am unfamiliar with other russian buffs but I see no reason why they shouldn't be represented fairly equally either.
Japan!!!  not one buff... Japan sorely needs, a dive bomber, a torpedo plane, a medium bomber, and like the gerries somethin heavy.
Come on... the pacific war was the US's war, yet AH can't do a scenario in that theater, due to some holes in the planeset.  

The way some of you guys address this issue makes me wonder how happy you would be if someone tried to sell you a game with US planes only...

+)

cheers Pyro, i enjoy every addition you guys make to the game, yet I am always more excited by the foreign units.  Keep at it!!

SKurj