Author Topic: Need advice, Aircraft shared ownership (Read 518 times)

CyranoAH · « **on:** December 21, 2003, 04:44:01 PM »

Greetings all,

I've been offered 1/6th of a Pitts S2B Special. The plane is in impeccable condition and with 800 hrs engine potential.

Now the numbers: the price for the share is € 7200, and from what I've seen, it's a good price (7200 x 6 = € 43200, far cheaper than an used Pitts with similar engine potential).

I have calculated the following numbers:

Fixed costs:

- Reserve for the engine overhaul (€ 900 per year, with an estimated 100 hours per year total time, with a calculated overhaul cost of € 40000)
- € 30 per month (hangar)
- € 30 per month (insurance)

Variable costs:

- € 100 cost per hour + € 24 reserve for maintenance
- Accidents, upgrades... no idea

The plane is fully equipped and does airshows and participates in the national aerobatics championship. I've tested it and flies wonderfully.

The question: is there anything I'm forgetting? Any hidden costs I should be aware of?

Thanks in advance,

Daniel

Toad · « **Reply #1 on:** December 21, 2003, 04:53:08 PM »

It's a great airplane and you'd know if the price is right.

However..... and there's always a "however".... airplane partnerships canbe/are stressful between two friends. I'd be reluctant to get into one with 5 people I don't know.

Maverick · « **Reply #2 on:** December 21, 2003, 05:19:29 PM »

Money aside you really need to look at flight time budgeting. How many hours per week / month / quarter are each partner going to get? Is is a set schedule or a bid process? Does anyone have a prior call on time or preferential amount of time based on number of "shares"?

Partnerships ARE a strain on folks and having 6 in a single airplane can really push the limit.

The numbers you show indicate that the money is already calculated but it will be the peopl factor in the equation that really tell if it will work. Good luck with it if you do it.

CyranoAH · « **Reply #3 on:** December 21, 2003, 06:24:25 PM »

Thanks for the quick replies guys.

More info:

About the owners:

- One is my aerobatics instructor, he is 25 and national champion in intermediate category.

- Three are older than 65, with a true love for this plane and plenty of flight experience (ex-military). Oh and plenty of money.

- The other one I don't know much about. He sometimes participates in the national championships, but he doesn't fly much.

About the flights: You fly whenever you want, and there are not many disputes about the when, since 3 of the owners don't fly much.

Don't hesitate to add anything you may find important. It's a big investment and I'm 50-50 so far (I really understand why people fall in love with this plane, but it also represents commiting myself to flying this particular one)

Daniel

Creamo · « **Reply #4 on:** December 21, 2003, 07:28:05 PM »

My Dad did the same thing with a Cherokee 6 in the late 70’s. It was only with 2 other guys but I remember him saying it’s got to be the right guys. Booking time wasn’t a problem but remember in real life you fly the engine, not the airplane. If they don’t abuse it, you have a good deal. Since then he bought a Tomahawk for $20K which he uses to commute to work with, and paid by the government per mile, which is pretty cool, with none of the hassles. But it ain’t no Pitts! Good luck, that’s one cool plane.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #5 on:** December 21, 2003, 09:58:36 PM »

Hmmm I cant say for sure just yet, but if you give me a ride....

Roscoroo · « **Reply #6 on:** December 21, 2003, 10:19:40 PM »

I'd look at all the past maintenance records closely .. and see what kind of work and how much abuse the plane has gotten ...

Along with a clause that if one of the owners is stunting the plane alot they should be responsable for the early wear and tear ... (why should you have to pay for engine repairs from over speed ect ... ) unless your the one doing the damage/heavy use.

Oh yea ... im not shure about Air shows .. but in drag racing we get paid just for taking our top fuel car out ....

Maverick · « **Reply #7 on:** December 22, 2003, 10:06:59 AM »

Roscoroo,

From what he said in his earlier post, ALL the owners have a hand in performing stunts in it. More than one in an airshow environment and or competition. This does involve additional maintenance considerations due to te G forces that concentional aircraft usage does not involve. It will mean stringent inspections far more frequently than normal category and cover everything from the prop back.

I'd look at the maintenance reserve and make sure that there are funds for minor things like wing spars and other structural repairs that may be subject to early fatigue. The engine is only one component that can cost big money here.

beet1e · « **Reply #8 on:** December 22, 2003, 10:18:47 AM »

Daniel! Now I would like to take you up on that raincheck from 2002!

I looked at your figures, and you seem to have done your homework - the figures might vary, but if all you guys are prepared to stump up some extra cash in the event of an unforeseen problem, you should be OK. I tend to agree with Toad, and relations in syndicates can become strained. One of the guys I shared with was taking our plane away on business and generally exceeding his quarter share. But with a plane like the Pitts (1½ hours endurance?) that's not likely to be a problem.

With the weather that you have where you live, you'll have lots of flying opportunities.

I'll start checking flight schedules to Barcelona.

LePaul · « **Reply #9 on:** December 22, 2003, 10:23:39 AM »

I've heard of partnerships working out great...the only real problem being...nice day, 2 guys want the plane...who wins?

CyranoAH · « **Reply #10 on:** December 22, 2003, 10:58:13 AM »

Thanks again guys, I'll give it some serious thought.

As for two guys wanting the plane the same day, it's not that much of a problem, since you rarely fly more than 40-50 minutes if you are doing aerobatics. The place where we are allowed to train our tables is barely 5 minutes away from take-off.

I'll keep you posted

Daniel

Bluefish · « **Reply #11 on:** December 22, 2003, 11:48:38 AM »

A couple further thoughts if you're planning to do much competition flying. I don't know how aerobatics competitions are scheduled in Europe, but in the US they generally require having the plane from Thursday to Sunday, which could put a fair amount of strain on your partnership if you book a lot of 4 day weekends and none of the other owners are flying in the same competition (that $100/hr charge really adds up in travel to contests too, if you're flying it alone).

Based on what you wrote, it looks like no one's flying at a higher level than intermediate, but my understanding (which is admittedly very limited) is that wear and tear (particularly on the engine) goes up dramatically in Advanced and Unlimited with the increased gyroscopic maneuvers. So, if anyone's planning to move to a higher category anytime soon you may want to provide in advance for an adjustment in the proportionate charge for the maintenance reserve.

Make sure the insurance cost includes a competition endorsement

You didn't include any costs for parachute repacks (I assume that they're mandatory for acro in Europe as in the US). Also, check the age of the chute canopies and their weight limitations (if that could be a concern); in the US a lot of riggers won't repack canopies that are over 20 years old.

I've seen some postings recently on the Acro BBS about an Australian airworthiness directive for certain Hartzell propellors on S2Bs- I don't know if that's an issue limited to Australia for some reason but you may want to check this out.

Best of luck- she's a sweet looking bird (and congratulations on being able to get a hangar for 180 euros/mo- that 's about 1/2 of what they cost in the Western US, if you can find them at all).

LePaul · « **Reply #12 on:** December 22, 2003, 11:57:22 AM »

I phrased my question poorly...

What if you want to take it overnight, spur of the moment? Granted this isnt a Malibu, Skyhawk or whatever...but just for the sake of debate, what if you are in a partnership, suddenly you have a need/desire to take the plane out for a weekend...say an Aces High con

Does your partnership address how to handle conflicts when one member wants to take the airplane for a few days when the other would like to as well?

The place I rented from had some interesting rules to accomdate items like this. For example, you had to pay a per day fee...so if you had the plane for 3 days, that was 3 days they couldnt generate revenue with it. So there were some fees added.

Just curious what your partnership says...and perhaps what other FBOs do about multi-day rentals.

crowMAW · « **Reply #13 on:** December 22, 2003, 12:43:46 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Bluefish
Make sure the insurance cost includes a competition endorsement

I double that comment...€ 30 x 6 = € 180 per month total! That is some damn cheap insurance for an aerobatic aircraft being used in shows and competition.

CyranoAH · « **Reply #14 on:** December 23, 2003, 05:35:55 AM »

About competitions. We hardly have one or two every year, and since aerobatics is not a big thing here and not too many people participate, the government pays for most of the expenses, including ferrying and insurance.

LePaul: About taking the plane for a weekend... well, if you plan in advance, I doubt there would be problems unless it interferes with trainings for a competition.

In the club where I fly, if you are flying more than 2 hours (engine time), you can have the plane for a day. There are some planes excluded from this rule so that the entire fleet is not away at the same time.

That can be done because the fleet is quite large (28 planes including 172N, 172J, 182, PA28, PA27, C310, Robin 200, Tecnam P92JS, and a couple of aerobatic airplanes, a CAP10B and a Zlin Z-50, which I have to test in flight before making a decision on the Pitts).

There are also some historical planes that can be flown if you are really interested and with experience in taildraggers/aerobatics. Right now I'm learning to fly the Dornier 27 (hell of a beast), but there is also a T34 Mentor, a Boeing Stearman, 2 Bücker Jungmanns, and a couple more.

Bluefish: Thanks for the info, I really hadn't taken into account the parachutes. The ones in the Pitts are not old, but it's another cost to add, nevertheless.

Hangars are not as expensive as in the US because aviation is not such a big thing here... for better or worse.

Daniel