Author Topic: Dumb questions re slats (slots)  (Read 3194 times)

Offline Badboy

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1226
Re: Re: Re: Dumb questions re slats (slots)
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2004, 06:20:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun


>There is also one account of it happening to an Me109 pilot who described an occasion where the slats opened differentially in a hard turn during combat, but I don’t recall the source off hand.

It was RAE test pilot Eric Brown :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


Yep, I recall reading Eric Brown's comments but I was thinking of an anecdote quoted by a German pilot. Also there are these quotes from a report on the turning circles of the Me109, Spitfire and Hurricane, the Me109 was flown by W/C. Stainforth during this investigation. Some of the comments regarding the slats are seen in the image below:  



Badboy
The Damned (est. 1988)
  • AH Training Corps - Retired
  • Air Warrior Trainer - Retired

Offline HoHun

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
Re: Re: Re: Re: Dumb questions re slats (slots)
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2004, 07:39:18 AM »
Hi Badboy,

>Yep, I recall reading Eric Brown's comments but I was thinking of an anecdote quoted by a German pilot.

In fact, most German pilots seem to have liked the slats. I recall an anecdote by Erwin Leinkauf, who claimed he could out-turn Spitfires during the Battle of Britain with them. (I assume he referred to high altitude, as he mentioned that this wasn't possible any more against later Spitfire marks with more powerful engines.)

I've also read a comment suggesting that the slats on the RAE Messerschmitt were improperly adjusted so that they came out asymmetrically in a symmetrical turn, while they'd normally only come out asymmetrically due to asymmetrical air flow.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline gripen

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
Dumb questions re slats (slots)
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2004, 04:02:17 PM »
HoHun,
RAE report on Bf 109E says quite same as Leinkauf; "In surprisingly large number of cases, however, the Me. 109 succeded in keeping on the tail of the Spitfire or Hurricane during these turning tests, merely because our pilots would not tighten up the turn sufficiently from fear of stalling and spinning."  RAE test also says  clearly that slots came out well before stall (about 0,5g) and " when the slots were fully open the aircraft could be turned quite steadily until very near the stall". Leinkauf and RAE are talking about same thing; skill of the pilot. Nothing in the RAE report indicates that the plane had been in bad condition.

About slots opening it should be noted that level turning is not symmetrical flying; inner slot will come out earlier due to rolling moment and slower air speed if compared to outer slot. What changed in the later Bf 109 models was that frise aileron did not snatch as slotted ailerons.

gripen

Offline HoHun

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
Dumb questions re slats (slots)
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2004, 06:00:33 PM »
Hi Gripen,

>About slots opening it should be noted that level turning is not symmetrical flying

Not exactly, but coordinated turning, which means energy-efficient turning, is fairly close.

>Leinkauf and RAE are talking about same thing; skill of the pilot.

Well, I admit that I'd certainly expect more familiarity with flying the Me 109 on the Luftwaffe side :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline gripen

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
Dumb questions re slats (slots)
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2004, 11:45:51 PM »
HoHun,
To keep altitude constant while  turning (ie level turning) the pilot must use ailerons to bank plane simultaneously and continously while pulling elevator, rudder is used just to keep "ball in the middle" (ie to controll direction of the plane). If ailerons are not continously  used during turn, the plane will gain or lose altitude or yaw due to rudder input. Therefore you can't call anykind of turning symmetrical flying if altitude is keeped constant.

I'm pretty certain that skills of the LW pilots varied as well as skills of the RAF pilots. Anyway, RAE test pilots appear to have been quite familiar with the Bf 109; results in the simulated combats support Leinkauf's view.

gripen

Offline HoHun

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
Dumb questions re slats (slots)
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2004, 12:04:34 AM »
Hi Gripen,

>Therefore you can't call anykind of turning symmetrical flying if altitude is keeped constant.

Strictly speaking, correct. However, how much asymmetry do you expect from a 30 ft wingspan plane in a 900 ft radius turn? I'd say that in a coordinated turn, there should be no appreciable asymmetry in slat deployment. I freely admit that I'm speculating, though :-)

>Anyway, RAE test pilots appear to have been quite familiar with the Bf 109; results in the simulated combats support Leinkauf's view.

I'm glad to find finally anything consistent in the Me 109E discussion :-)

(Many reports on the Emil don't seem to match each other, so I'm quite serious actually.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline gripen

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
Dumb questions re slats (slots)
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2004, 04:57:43 PM »
HoHun,
As noted several times above: There is two factors which cause uneven opening of the slots in the turn,  (very) small speed difference between inner and outer slot and angle of the attack difference between inner and outer slot due to rolling moment caused by aileron deflection. Later is probably more important in the case of the Bf 109 but both affect to same direction.

Leinkauf and RAE test pilots saw both same phenomena. Leinkauf draw wrong conclusion while RAE draw correct conclusion.

gripen

Offline HoHun

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
Dumb questions re slats (slots)
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2004, 06:35:01 PM »
Hi Gripen,

>angle of the attack difference between inner and outer slot due to rolling moment caused by aileron deflection.

It may be this point where I don't understand you. Do you mean the angle-of-attack difference while rolling, or the different airflow around the wing with ailerons deflected?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline gripen

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
Dumb questions re slats (slots)
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2004, 03:41:22 AM »
HoHun,
I don't know how to explain this better than I have allready done? If a plane is in a continous and steady level banked turn then ailerons must be used to keep bank constant. Without this the plane will start to gain altitude while the amount of bank decrease if the g load is keeped constant with elevator. If the altitude is keeped constant then g load will decrease due to decrease of the bank. Basicly there is a small difference between angle of the attack between outer and inner wing tip due to this rolling moment needed to keep bank constant. This is excatly the same phenomena claimed by Eric Brown when he said that deployment of the slots ruined accurate sighting while maneuvering.

gripen

Offline HoHun

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
Dumb questions re slats (slots)
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2004, 11:10:31 AM »
Hi Gripen,

>Basicly there is a small difference between angle of the attack between outer and inner wing tip due to this rolling moment needed to keep bank constant.

This small difference is only going to lead to asymmetric slat deployment when you're exactly bracketing the angle of attack for deployment with it.

There's both a large part of the envelope where both flaps do not deplay in a term, and a large part of the envelope where they both deploy in spite of the difference.

Do we agree so far?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline gripen

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
Dumb questions re slats (slots)
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2004, 05:44:26 PM »
HoHun,
I am just pointing out physical reasons why slots does not  work simultaneously at speeds where they come out  assuming that otherwise slots are identical (and wing is in optimal condition etc.). Even on these ideal conditions exactly simultaeous opening of the slots would be a rarity because fully symmetrical flying condition is a rarity as well. In the RAE  test "slots opened almost simultaneously" when they tested stall speeds for determination of the Clmax.

In practice there are many other things which affect (condition of the plane, manufacturing tolerances etc.).  I have seen films of the Bf 109 and the La-5 where uneven opening is clearly visible on maneuvering plane. Therefore it's quite safe to say that uneven opening of the slots was a standard "feature" on Bf 109. But it should be noted as allready said above that later models of the Bf 109 had frise type ailerons which did not snatch as badly as slotted ailerons of the Bf 109E.

gripen

Offline Tilt

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7358
      • FullTilt
Dumb questions re slats (slots)
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2004, 06:35:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen
I have seen films of the Bf 109 and the La-5 where uneven opening is clearly visible on maneuvering plane.


You have seen film of an La5?
Ludere Vincere

Offline gripen

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
Dumb questions re slats (slots)
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2004, 11:53:57 PM »
Tilt,
Yes,  there is a russian company which sells video copies of original training films. I've seen this kind of film on DB-3, Po-2, Pe-2, La-5 and several other planes including film on captured Fw 190.

gripen

Offline VO101_Isegrim

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 577
Re "uneven" opening
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2004, 09:17:32 AM »
Some little addition to the uneven opening of the L.E. slats. I tend to believe that the RAE`s report is referring to the uneven opening of one slat, and not to the assymetric opening of both on the two wings depending on AoA etc., which should be nothing of news value, being quite natural. And perhaps due to my lack of understanding in  aerodynamics, I don`t see why would this lead to aileron snatching...

Thus I believe itthe phenomenon they talking about was actually the uneven opening of one slat in turn, if the pilot was not keeping the ball centered, for example the slat`s inner portition came out first in a turn, and the outer one only later, which of course meant that the lift was chaning unevenly over the wing area AND the ailerons, resulting the ailerons being twisting/snatching slightly under different pressures.

As Dave Southwood described on Bf 109G :

Quote
One interesting feature is the leading edge slats.  When these deploy at low speeds or in a turn, a 'clunk' can be heard and felt, but there is no disturbance to the aircraft about any axis.  I understand that the Bf109E rolled violently as the slats deployed, and I am curious to know the difference to the Gustav that caused this.


I don`t think the Frise ailerons on 109 G (and F, K) would be the major reason for the improvement. Then it would be an improvement, while it is clear that the phenomenon found on the 109E just disappeared. I think the reason for that lays within the fact that the slat`s mechanism was changed on late Fs and all Gs, being operated by 2 rollers/slat (late F/G/K) instead of 2 swing arms/slat as on previous models. If I got it right the latter would allow by their nature the slat open unevenly along the leading edge, while rollers would make it even all the way, as there`s no "play" between the operating of the two, they move in perfect syncron forward and aft, opening and closing the slats neatly. As a result, the slats will always make their appearance felt over the wing or the ailerons on the trailing edge right in their aerodynamic shadow at the same time, hence no disturbance in any flying axis.

BTW, what type of slat operation the Lavochkin series had ? Swingarm or rollers?

As for the British pilot`s skill with the 109s, I find that very doubtful. Perhaps a very few of them were familiar with it, and managed to push it to the edge in turning, but the overwhelming majority of them give the impression they fly a plane with leading edge slats for the first time in their life, hence the almost childish curiosity display towards the operating of the slats.  It was just all new, unfamiliar to them. Besides, how much time they did have on those rare flyable models ? Eric Brwon, probably the most skilled pilot of all of them, and certainly the most often qouted, logged in about a single hour into the Bf 109G-6/U2/R-6 he flew. That`s about 1/30 of the time a German rookie spent in the type as late as 1944...... it speaks for itself, even if we take Brown`s great general flying experience, he hardly had more than a single sightseeing run with the type instead of a proper training under the hands of a skilled instructor. Certainly such an unfamiliarity on the part of British test pilots with the plane`s major asset for horizontal manouveribilty contributed to such surrealistic result such as :

Quote
Turning Circle

The Tempest is slightly better, the Bf.109G being embarrassed by its slots opening near the stall.


Well at least they made the reason clear: the pilot`s were being embrasssed by opening of the leading edge slats, which happened a good 20-30 km/h above the stall speed itself. Of course trying to turn about 25 km/h over stall speed, with the maximum lift coefficient of the wings isn`t even realising would hardly improve the turning circle. I remember reading Tobak`s book, a 109s pilot who`s clealry remembered his instructor`s most common advice during the training with Bf 109s: Ziehen, noch ziehen!. Or pull it, pull it more. In other words, the 109 was a plane that like being pulled hardly on the stick in turns, the slats allowed for high angles of attack at which un-slatted types would stall due to loss of airflow.

Offline Tilt

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7358
      • FullTilt
Dumb questions re slats (slots)
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2004, 10:28:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen
Tilt,
Yes,  there is a russian company which sells video copies of original training films. I've seen this kind of film on DB-3, Po-2, Pe-2, La-5 and several other planes including film on captured Fw 190.

gripen


How do i contact them?
Ludere Vincere