Author Topic: Free Babylon 5 sim released  (Read 976 times)

Offline Chairboy

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« on: December 28, 2003, 12:42:42 PM »
http://ifh.firstones.com/index.shtml

It's called "I've Found Her" and apparently uses newtonian physics for space combat.

Has anyone tried it?
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Offline udet

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« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2003, 05:55:03 PM »
umm I don't think space combat is possible using Newtonian physics

Offline Replicant

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« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2003, 06:39:11 PM »
Well I've downloaded it, in ship display/flight seems easy okay although the movies are waaaaay slow even on my fairly fast system.  Here's a screenie from the training sortie:-
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Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2003, 08:32:50 PM »
Hi Udet,

What do ya mean, space combat not possible using newtonian physics?
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Offline Frogm4n

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« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2003, 08:38:37 PM »
I have been playing a space based MMORPG since 1998. It uses newtonian physics for its flight model. Trust me, there are no issues when it comes to combat. It is quite possible, and quite fun. When it comes to stopping an underpowered frieghter then you have issues.

Offline MrCoffee

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« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2003, 08:42:06 PM »
Actually newtonian physics is perfect for space games. Unlesss of course you want to model a realistic hyperspace jump or wormhole jump to another galaxy, then you would want a quantum physics model based game.

Offline udet

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« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2003, 10:16:47 PM »
lol I can see there are no engineers here. Imagine a spacecraft moving at thousands of feet per second. Let's say it's deep in outer space. Let's say you want to change direction 180 degrees. How much time will that take you, considering that your body cannot take more than 10Gs? How will you carry fight?

Offline Lizking

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« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2003, 10:33:11 PM »
but.but, like Dude!  the Lasers go ZOOM!~

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2003, 10:57:21 PM »
Ah, I see.  Udet, you must be trying to adapt airplane combat maneuvers to a space combat situation.

Simple answer for your situation, you DON'T do a 180.  In Babylon 5, most of the flight was by combatants within a few thousand FPS of each other.  

You have different options when it comes to how to fight.  Here are a few I can think of:

1. Slashing attacks.  The equivalent of HO's, you charge your enemy and unload everything you can along likely vectors they can maneuver to.  The fight is over in seconds, or you both have a few minutes/hours/whatever to turn around and repeat.

2. Stand-off engagement.  This would be similar to old infantry or artillery tactics where both sides are far apart and firing projectiles or missiles at each other.  
2a. Missiles could be launched enmasse with the intent of overwhelming the other sides defenses.
2b. Stealth missiles could be launched with the design of infiltrating detection networks to engage ships one by one.
2c.  Dumb projectiles could be fired by the millions, chemically or electromagnetically with the design of holing their targets.

3. Low-speed close combat.  You have close fighting, similar to dogfighting or close hand to hand combat with low relative speeds.  The fight might look more like a swarm.

B5 was more like situation 3.  You are constrained by the laws of physics.  No Wing Commander or Star Wars type airplane fights, you must apply thrust along the proper vectors to maneuver.

PS, I am an engineer.
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Offline Octavius

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« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2003, 11:13:09 PM »
wtf?

newtonian physics fail at relativistic speeds.   "c" .

I'm not familiar with Babylon 5, but I would assume sci-fi space combat could take place at any number of speeds.  It's their game, let them develop it  however they want.
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Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2003, 01:25:23 AM »
Babylon 5 space combat takes place at relatively slow speeds because most places of interest have a jump gate nearby (which allows ships of almost any size to travel long distances quickly).  

Ships that are big enough to power their own jump drives can come out of hyperspace wherever they want, so there's never a real reason to get up to any tremendous speed before you reach where you're going (unless you're getting into orbit).

Sooo....  there's no relativistic combat, octavius.
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Offline Wolfala

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« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2003, 01:59:05 AM »
Hey - its free - and its basically Orbiter with guns (though an avid B5 fan - I thank my stars) I will appreciate more then most that someone made the effort to resurect the game that was ax'd 2 years ago.


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Offline Octavius

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« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2003, 02:23:50 AM »
erm, sorry Chair!  That was directed at udet :)
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Offline deSelys

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« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2003, 05:49:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by udet
umm I don't think space combat is possible using Newtonian physics



Hehe, people said that too about planes before WWI. Trust mankind's imagination when it comes to blow each other to pieces.


IMO, newtonian based space combat should be closer to modern submarine warfare than to dogfights: stealth, long range detection, and intelligent stand-off weapons... + the relativistic issues when you go too fast.... or the fact that a single particle of dust can ruin your ship even before you reach relativistic speeds.

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Offline udet

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« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2003, 12:48:11 PM »
I really can't imagine using thrusters to manuever like that in situation 3 that Chairboy imagined. What exactly is low speed anyway? Let's say that your spacecraft travels at 32,000 ft/s. That's about the Earth escape velocity, and flying any slower than that in space simply makes no sense for a variety of reasons (I can elaborate on that if you want me to). Now consider that you want to change the direction of your trajectory 180 degrees, a likely situation if you miss your target on the first shot. That'd mean that your delta V will be 64,000 ft/s. if you use your thrusters to produce an acceleration of 10G-320ft/s^2 that gives the time it will take you to complete the maneuver as 200seconds, that is just a bit over three minutes. In that time, your target will be pretty far away from you, if you can do the math.
Only way to bypass this limitations is to use some yet undevise method to propel your ship without propellant and at the same time to reduce the inertial forces inside. Basically, move into Science fiction, just like any other space combat game so far. This yields all of them eqially realistic, from X-Wing to Privateer to this Babylon 5 game.