Author Topic: Suggestion to cure dive-bombing Lancs  (Read 1412 times)

Offline MetaTron

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Suggestion to cure dive-bombing Lancs
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2004, 02:53:30 PM »
While nothing WideWing posted is incorrect, I don't think he made a suggestion that would stop dive-bombing. Modeling the shackles correctly would only see the program grow in complexity without any substance being added (a waste of time), and the problem would continue. No doubt, the reason the B26 crewman discounted dive-bombing is that it would not work en masse, and it was en masse that our missions were conducted. A lone bomber could dive bomb without much danger of its own eggs striking it, but it would still be open to defensive emplacements.

I've been the gunner on a CV online and I can tell you that even an inexperienced gunner can hit the bomber formation when it makes the pitch down manuever. The trick is in doing it before it drops its ordinance.

Offline dedalos

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Suggestion to cure dive-bombing Lancs
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2004, 03:09:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MetaTron
While nothing WideWing posted is incorrect, I don't think he made a suggestion that would stop dive-bombing. Modeling the shackles correctly would only see the program grow in complexity without any substance being added (a waste of time), and the problem would continue. No doubt, the reason the B26 crewman discounted dive-bombing is that it would not work en masse, and it was en masse that our missions were conducted. A lone bomber could dive bomb without much danger of its own eggs striking it, but it would still be open to defensive emplacements.

I've been the gunner on a CV online and I can tell you that even an inexperienced gunner can hit the bomber formation when it makes the pitch down manuever. The trick is in doing it before it drops its ordinance.


Agreed, a CV group should be able to put up more lead.
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Widewing

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Suggestion to cure dive-bombing Lancs
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2004, 07:17:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
The idea that a diving plane couldn't release bombs is a false.  If from a dive the pilot puts 1 g on the airplane. The bombs will release exactly as if the bomber was level.

HiTech


In a simplified physics world you would think so, but it simply isn't the case. Because you have the nose pointed down, you have induced a vector component and it's the vector component that does this theory in. Then there is the issue of bomb stability with the bomb being pitched into a high-speed airflow at an angle off that for which it was designed to stabilize. One of the major problems with dumping ordnance in a dive from an internal bomb bay was the bombs tumbling and striking the aircraft and each other. The Navy had problems with this when dive bombing with the TBF/TBM. Procedures were developed to minimize the risk, but it was never completely safe.

Another issue was the 200% rule for bomb racks. in other words, the racks were rated for 200% their normal max weight loading. It was common place for bomb to rip off of external racks of fighters when subjected to G loads that exceeded the rating.

For example, the P-38's shackles could withstand loads of up to 4,000 lbs before the bomb would simply pull off. So, in theory a 500 lb bomb would stay attached at loads up to 8g. A 1,000 lb bomb could be expected to rip away at 4G. However, this ultimate loading is also mitigated by side loading (sway), yaw loads and all other vector components loading the shackles. None of these additional loads can be predicted by a pilot, so all bets are off.

Vectors are also induced when using pitch-up to toss bombs from the bomb bay. How the bomb will respond to that vector is unknown. But, you can be sure that it will be different than imagined.

It was not uncommon for heavy bombs to break away from shackles when the bomber was subjected to severe wind shear. Nothing quite like having a fuzed 1,000 pound GP bomb bouncing around the bomb bay. If you were lucky, it was the lowest in the stack and it could be jetisoned by opening the bomb bay doors, as long as it didn't tear up fuel and hydraulic lines or electrical conduits in the bomb bay. If it was at the top of the stack, odds where that it would knock more bombs off the shackles. Shackles sometimes failed under minimal load.. things wear out or are sometimes improperly adjusted.

Some years ago a problem developed during ordnance tests of B-1Bs dropping retarded Mk.82 and Mk.84 retarded bombs. The retard mechanism is called a "ballute" (combination parachute and balloon). If the retard ballute deployed too soon, it could cause the bomb to pitch up and strike the underside of the bomber. I designed the retard sensor for the safe and arm fuze. I had to redesign the sensor to accomodate a reduction in peak G because the ballute deployment was delayed to allow the bombs to clear the aircraft and this delay resulted in bomb velocity being degraded, reducing the peak G at ballute deployment. The bombs are retarded (slowed rapidly) to allow the bomber to clear the fragmentation zone (bombs are dropped from low level) before detonation. I also designed the sensor for the contact fuze.

Anyway, dynamics associated with dropping bombs are extremely complex and not remotely as simple as you have indicated.

Whether or not a dive angle limit for level bombers is practical from a programming point of view, I can't comment as I do not have any idea. I do know that the physics of releasing ordnance from aircraft is extremely complex from my own experience in designing fuzing system components for modern ordnance (FMU-139 and FMU-143 unitary fuzes).

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: January 06, 2004, 12:55:14 AM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline B17Skull12

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Suggestion to cure dive-bombing Lancs
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2004, 08:27:36 PM »
<----votes widewing smartest person of the year.
Even with my expirence with physics this seems reasonable widewing, which is why i think he is right.
II/JG3 DGS II

Offline Halo

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Suggestion to cure dive-bombing Lancs
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2004, 08:33:05 PM »
Well, Widewing, from reading many of your previous posts I concluded you know a LOT about what you're talking about, and this thread confirms it.  My compliments, and thanks for the info you share.  Always very civilly too.  Admirable.
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Offline MetaTron

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Suggestion to cure dive-bombing Lancs
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2004, 09:19:16 PM »
The guys are engaging in a practice that is very nearly suicide now. A few more lose eggs killing them a little more often isn't going to slow them down. Failing outright will.

Offline lasersailor184

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Suggestion to cure dive-bombing Lancs
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2004, 10:55:56 PM »
Can the bombs in AH right now cause splash damage to things around them?
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Offline Rolex

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Suggestion to cure dive-bombing Lancs
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2004, 11:21:24 PM »
How about this novel approach:

Anticipate the direction and altitude of threats to your high-value target (cv) and fly a CAP sufficient radius out to intercept the threat. :eek:

Offline Kweassa

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Suggestion to cure dive-bombing Lancs
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2004, 04:40:43 AM »
"Divebombing Lanc" is only a part of the whole "suicidal mentality" that needs to be repressed/cured. Implementing a makeshift solution that would prohibit level buffs from making suicidal divebomb runs, I would love to see.

 However, the same type of problem still remains with the same kind of people coming in with those typical, suicidal "1k bomb runs" right off the deck.. also, if divebombing heavy buffs go the way of the dodo, then we're just gonna see that much more suicidal jabo attacks from fighters.

 
 All of the three major problems:

1) people using divebombing methods with heavy bombers
2) people using heavy bomber formations at extremely low-alt attacks
3) people using jabo attacks in a sucidal manner

 come from the same problem group:

1) No penalty with death
2) Available ordnance is free, too large, and too effective
3) Near impossible jabo interception
4) A2G attacks concentrated solely against airfield objects
5) Immediate tactical advantage gained by destruction of few field objects

 The combination of above five problems, creates the "ends justify the means" mentality, mixed with the "reward is higher than risk" mentality. No penalties to suffer from foolish, suicidal attack runs, and yet it is deadly effective if it succeeds. In a sector of tightly matched battling grounds, just encourage and send in some unwitting noob lackeys strapped with bombs and make them kill fuels.

 Voila, within 5 minutes the tide of entire battle changes - the enemy cannot get up and grab alt.

 If we should seek to stop this, it is clear that we need either a solution that touches all of the five main reasons of bozoism, or a series of solution that touch each and every one of those five.

Offline bj229r

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Suggestion to cure dive-bombing Lancs
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2004, 06:47:43 AM »
there is one aspect of AH Ive never understood--puke comes in, kills a gas or 2..augers--ya see that repeated 5 times with 5 similar pukes..base is useless for like an hour. Now if those guys wanted to kill the HANgars, wouldve need heap more said pukes, and hangars would only be down 15 min.....Why strats stay down so long in comparison?
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Offline GODO

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Suggestion to cure dive-bombing Lancs
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2004, 07:08:42 AM »
Not only the bombs, but also the crew would be affected by pronounced dives.

Offline dedalos

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Suggestion to cure dive-bombing Lancs
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2004, 08:54:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rolex
How about this novel approach:

Anticipate the direction and altitude of threats to your high-value target (cv) and fly a CAP sufficient radius out to intercept the threat. :eek:


You are right, from now I will be flying in circles at 20K over the fleet just in case some diving LANCs show up and hope that I can dive with them.  I bet you if I did that, some idiot would show up at 30K.  How about a sudgestion for you?  Why don't you learn how to level bomb.  You know, the way it is suposed to be done?  Is that too hard for you?

Diving heavy bombers are bull. No matter what HT says, it cannot be done.  It has not been done in the past and it is not done now.
Somebody should tell the airforce about this bombing technique cause they have not figured it out yet.

As for the fuel, an easy solution would be: no less than 50%.  If you want to stop me from taking off, cap the field or destroy the hangars.
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline hitech

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Suggestion to cure dive-bombing Lancs
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2004, 09:21:24 AM »
Widewing, you make a lot of statments but they do not contradict my point. Dive angle alone when pulling one 1g (i.e. 1g lift not combined) does not change the way it drops from the plane. The bomb will leave the plane in the exact same maner as if you were flying level. Realitve to the earth it will have a different trajectory, but realitve to the plane (the resone stated it wouldn't drop) it will be the same. You bring in lots of other paramaters like speed,More than 1 g,side load. All these are completly different subjects.

There are a lot of weapon release paramaters that could be implemeted. But most are very plane specific. And implementing 1 (i.e. Dive) which is false is no better than leaving it the way it is.

This hole argument comes from a disire to change the way people fly, i.e. because is wasn't done (not couldn't be done) in real life people don't want it done here.

The problem is not weather dive bombing buffs should be changed (this is purly game play related and should be argued as such), but with most of the bogus "selective reality" arguments as to why they don't wish dive bombing buffs to happen.


HiTech

Offline dedalos

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Suggestion to cure dive-bombing Lancs
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2004, 10:05:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Widewing, you make a lot of statments but they do not contradict my point. Dive angle alone when pulling one 1g (i.e. 1g lift not combined) does not change the way it drops from the plane. The bomb will leave the plane in the exact same maner as if you were flying level. Realitve to the earth it will have a different trajectory, but realitve to the plane (the resone stated it wouldn't drop) it will be the same. You bring in lots of other paramaters like speed,More than 1 g,side load. All these are completly different subjects.


Maybe I just don't understand how this is possible, so please help me here.  How can a plane in a dive pull 1 or more Gs unless the pilot pulls back on the stick as the bombs are being released.  If he does not do that, depending the angle of the dive (dive to me means pretty stip) he will end up with bombs floating in the bomb bays.  I understand that if the 1 or more Gs are there the bombs will be released.  I don;t understand how a diving plane can pull 1 or more Gs.
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline hitech

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Suggestion to cure dive-bombing Lancs
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2004, 10:10:51 AM »
He pulls back on the stick and release from an arc.

HiTech