Author Topic: The Government is here to help you...  (Read 4361 times)

Offline Saurdaukar

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8610
      • Army of Muppets
The Government is here to help you...
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2003, 08:28:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dago
Why dont they ban tobacco?  Over 400,000 deaths per year in the USA are directly caused by tobacco.  
Thats over 1000 deaths per day.  

Why not? MONEY.

dago


I disagree.

"Tobacco related deaths" include the example I gave above.

Its kind of like the people claiming that Pvt. John Soldier, who died in a hospital in Germany of pnemonia, is an Iraqi KIA simply because theres where he got sick.

Now, Im not claiming that tobacco products arent bad for the body and after continued use for decades increase the risk of cancer or other diseases but from the 'Truth' ads on TV, youd think a cigarette was the Black Plague in rolling paper.

'Direct' causes of death, attributed to tobacco use, in my opinion, include those diseases 'directly' caused by tobacco use.  Empheseyma, lung/throat/mouth cancer, etc.

A tobacco user who has died of a brain tumor is not a tobacco related death as far as Im concerned.  Do they include Mr. Brain Tumor in those numbers?  You bet your bellybutton - that bastard had a pack of Camels in his car.

Ive used ephedra and Im a smoker.  I know which one ****ed up my body the worst - both in terms of immediate effect and severity.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2003, 08:31:00 PM by Saurdaukar »

Offline Dago

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5324
The Government is here to help you...
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2003, 08:50:34 PM »
Saurdaukar

The figure I posted is the tally provided by scientists, doctors and researchers who have done extensive studying and research.  You seem to disagree.  I am curious, based on what?

dago
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline miko2d

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3177
The Government is here to help you...
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2003, 09:05:30 PM »
Dago: Miko, now you are just blathering like an idiot.

 No. I am just as consitent in my views as you are in yours.

 You seem to be supporting banning of ephedra just because some idiots hurt themsleves with it - as if teh ban will make them stop being idiots.

When the question was "why not ban alcohol?", I countered with tobacco.

 Yes - you have your own preference of what to ban and regulate.

  If you want to consider something the government should ban, if they should ban anything at all, they should go after tobacco first. Sure, each one of you has his own pet scheme to enforce on the rest of us. By the way - claiming to represent the people and acting to limit their liberties for their own good is the definition of the communists.

Sometime we need to consider the greater public good,

 As you perceive it - comltely arbitrarely and sujectively and contrary to the theory that it can not possibly be measured or calculated.

but money is the one thing that can get in the way.

 You have no idea what money is. I'd call you a marxist but toy are too ignorant for that.

 For all practical purposes, money is what the working people receive for their labor that they spend on whatever they want. By making their money no good for the purposes desired by them, you basically want to treat them as slaves - like any collectivist.

This is how our government works.  Dont like it, move to Canada.

 Now who is  raving? What did I ever say that is applicable to any specific government and would not hold true whether I was posting from Canada, Ukraine or Mars?

 You run out of your marxist arguments - so just shut up. I certainly do not need you permission to stay here in US or wherever I damn please.

 miko

Offline Saurdaukar

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8610
      • Army of Muppets
The Government is here to help you...
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2003, 09:14:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dago
Saurdaukar

The figure I posted is the tally provided by scientists, doctors and researchers who have done extensive studying and research.  You seem to disagree.  I am curious, based on what?

dago


Based on the definition of 'Tobacco Related Deaths.'

Do you have a source for your figure?  Ill hopefully be able to pluck an example from there.

Offline Ping

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 957
The Government is here to help you...
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2003, 09:18:50 PM »
Miko moved from a Communist country, Why would he want to move back to one?
Besides, Miko is capable of working, therefor the Canadian Government wouldnt let him in.
 Welfare cases only please.

Sheesh
I/JG2 Enemy Coast Ahead


Offline Saurdaukar

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8610
      • Army of Muppets
The Government is here to help you...
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2003, 09:22:38 PM »
Nevermind - found one on my own.

This one breaks down the 400,000 figure and says exactly what I stated above; the definition of 'smoking related deaths' is a little 'smokey' (no pun intended, of course)

http://www.cato.org/dailys/04-29-99.html

Quote
The crusade against the tobacco industry began with a kernel of truth -- that cigarettes are a high risk factor for lung cancer -- that has exploded into a war driven by greed and bad science. In today's commentary, Robert A. Levy and Rosalind Marimont take a fresh look at the case against smoking minus the propaganda fueling the fire of debate. They argue that the claim of smoking causing 400,000 premature deaths each year in the U.S. does not hold up under close scrutiny.


Quote
The truth is that smoking-related deaths, even under the generous definitions used by CDC, are associated with old age. Nearly 60 percent of the deaths occur at age 70 or above; nearly 45 percent at age 75 or above; and almost 17 percent at the grand old age of 85 or above! Nevertheless, without the slightest embarrassment, the public health community persists in characterizing those deaths as "premature." Regrettable, yes; premature, no.


Quote
None of this is to suggest that the attack against cigarettes is entirely dishonest. Without question, the evidence is that cigarettes substantially increase the risk of lung cancer, bronchitis, and emphysema. But most deaths from those diseases occur at an advanced age. The relationship between smoking and other diseases is not nearly so clear; and the scare mongering that has passed for science is quite simply appalling. The unifying bond of all science is that truth is its aim. That goal must not yield to politics, and science must not be corrupted to advance predetermined political ends. Sadly, that is exactly what has transpired as our public officials fabricate evidence to promote their crusade against big tobacco.


The table on the site where the 427,743 'smoking related deaths' is analysed, case by case, is particularly interesting.

For example, burn victims are included.  This in addition to the 120,000 odd deaths occuring between the ages of 75 and 84 and the 71,000 odd deaths amongst those 85 years of age or older.

Those deaths are classified as 'All Other Diseases' however it appears as though they are used as 'smoking related death' statistics in this case simple because they used a tobacco product - be it a cigarette, cigar or pipe.

By this logic, if I died at age 88 many years down the road and I was a soda drinker my death would be 'soda related.'

Hardly a strong argument if you ask me.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2003, 09:25:26 PM by Saurdaukar »

Offline FUNKED1

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6866
      • http://soldatensender.blogspot.com/
The Government is here to help you...
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2003, 10:30:14 PM »
When the going gets tough, the dimwitted go ad hominem.

Offline Dago

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5324
The Government is here to help you...
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2003, 10:32:06 PM »
Quote
You have no idea what money is


Miko, do you realize you try to gain the upperhand in every discussion by making foolish statements like this?

You constantly try to degrade everyone with your pronouncments that "they" dont know anything about a subject, yet you sit on the exalted throne of knowledge and experience.

If you're so freaking brilliiant, why do you spend time on this forum?  Why aren't  you teaching at a University, having great discussions in a think tank, or writing books?  Instead you spend a lot of time arguing on an irrelevant game forum and accomplish nothing.

I take it you are all blather without the plan to do anything.

Maybe in the future, you can try to sway opinion with facts, rational and relevant discourse, and not by trying to insult, to obscure and play world political and socioeconmic genius.

It seems to me you tend to avoid answering some questions.


dago
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline FUNKED1

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6866
      • http://soldatensender.blogspot.com/
The Government is here to help you...
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2003, 10:44:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy
If you feel the need to make personal attacks to get a point across, I suggest you find another bulletin board to post at.

Offline wrag

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3499
The Government is here to help you...
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2003, 03:11:47 AM »
Greater public good?????

That was one of the keystones of the NAZI (national SOCIALIST) party plank.  Look at what they did with it.

Where does it stop?  Who decides?

I see far to many laws being passed for the public good that are placing all our freedoms at great risk.

Sure MAYBE we will never get anyone into office that would abuse those laws.  Then again maybe we will get a Hitler.

The following site may shed more light on what Miko is really trying to say.....

http://www.newswithviews.com/Ohara/debbie15.htm

FDA????

http://www.newswithviews.com/Howenstine/james2.htm

and

http://www.newswithviews.com/Mary/starrett35.htm

and

http://www.newswithviews.com/health_care/health_care5.htm

hmmm  drug companies????

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. ... corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."
_- Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 21, 1864

Perhaps too many of us are a little too trusting?  

Perhaps too many of us put too much trust in what the teacher told us?  

Perhaps to many of us do not realize that all these officials are human beings?

Perhaps too many of us project a "they're good people" when we should be asking ourselves and them questions?

Perhaps..............
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline Fishu

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
The Government is here to help you...
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2003, 07:04:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dago
Today, the average lifespan in the USA is nine years (76) greater than the average for the rest of the world(67).  Darned that evil FDA for contributing to this pesky attempt to safeguard health!
 


I looked up some figures US vs. EU

US: men 72 , female 79
EU: men 74,7 , female 82,5 (both 78,6)

Figures from South Korea came up as well: men 68,8 and female 76


Not quite good to compare it to 'rest of the world', which includes some places like africa, which are far apart from other western type nations and their life spans.

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
The Government is here to help you...
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2003, 08:49:24 AM »
the young guys... women.. liberals and fanatic conservatives here simply don't get it..

They feel tha government is evil and too big when it bans stuff they like and take away their pet freedoms but that it is great when it bans things they don't like or takes away freedoms from people they don't care for... they then feel the government doesn't have enough power..

when will you guys get it straight?   every freedomn the government takes awayu from some group is taking away freedom from us all... it is incremental.. the bigger any organization with power over you gets the worse off you are.  

lazs

Offline Eagler

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18987
The Government is here to help you...
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2003, 09:13:46 AM »
the druggies are all upset again ?  LOL

there's plenty of speed around in other forms for you burn outs, stop whining & go find it
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27


Intel Core i7-13700KF | GIGABYTE Z790 AORUS Elite AX | 64GB G.Skill DDR5 | 16GB GIGABYTE RTX 4070 Ti Super | 850 watt ps | pimax Crystal Light | Warthog stick | TM1600 throttle | VKB Mk.V Rudder

Offline Munkii

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 552
The Government is here to help you...
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2003, 10:44:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
the young guys... women.. liberals and fanatic conservatives here simply don't get it..

They feel tha government is evil and too big when it bans stuff they like and take away their pet freedoms but that it is great when it bans things they don't like or takes away freedoms from people they don't care for... they then feel the government doesn't have enough power..

when will you guys get it straight?   every freedomn the government takes awayu from some group is taking away freedom from us all... it is incremental.. the bigger any organization with power over you gets the worse off you are.  

lazs


Just curious, do you support pro-choice in the abortion debate?

Nakhui

  • Guest
The Government is here to help you...
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2003, 11:03:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by wrag
That was one of the keystones of the NAZI (national SOCIALIST) party plank.  Look at what they did with it.


Ah! Yes... every thread must have a reference to Bush, Nazi, and Liberals.

Some how every subject is related to these three things... at least with this BBS community.

The last time I saw a nazi symbol was at the national air and space museum on a Me-109.

Why isn't that marking painted over with something more PC correct...doesn't Bush realize how offensive that is to the Jews?

It's the liberals who allow these atrocities to happen!

And what does any of this have to do with Ephredine again?

damn Nazi's have me brain washed!

LOL - :rofl