Author Topic: Founding Fathers on Democracy.  (Read 1061 times)

Offline miko2d

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Founding Fathers on Democracy.
« on: December 30, 2003, 04:16:29 PM »
Alexander Hamilton:
 "a clear sacrifice of great positive advantages, without any counterbalancing good; administering no relief to our real disease, which is democracy, the poison of which, by a subdivision, will only be more concentrated in each part, and consequently the more virulent."
 -- Letter to Theodore Sedgwick,July 10, 1804

 "It has been observed that a pure democracy if it were practicable would be the most perfect government. Experience has proved that no position is more false than this. The ancient democracies in which the people themselves deliberated never possessed one good feature of government. Their very character was tyranny; their figure deformity."
 --  Speech on June 21,1788


Elbridge Gerry (Declaration, Constitution, governor, vice president):
 The evils we experience flow from the excess of democracy.  The people do not want [do not lack] virtue; but are the dupes of pretended patriots.
 -- Madison's Convention Notes, May 31st


John Adams:
 "Democracy will envy all, endeavour to pull down all, and when by chance it happens to get the upper hand, it will be revengeful, bloody and cruel."
 -- Letter to Jefferson, July 16, 1814

 "Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide."
 -- Letter to John Taylor, April 15, 1814


John Quincy Adams:
 "The experience of all former ages had shown that of all human governments, democracy was the most unstable, fluctuating and short-lived.
 -- Speech April 30, 1839


Fisher Ames (Author of the House Language for the First Amendment):
 "A democracy is a volcano which conceals the fiery materials of its own destruction. These will produce an eruption and carry desolation in their way."
 -- Speech on Biennial Elections, delivered January, 1788.
The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness [excessive license] which the ambitious call, and ignorant believe to be liberty.
 -- "The Dangers of American Liberty," February 1805.
"Liberty has never lasted long in a democracy, nor has it ever ended in anything better than despotism."
"..democracy that pollutes the morals of the people before it swallows up their freedoms."


James Madison:
"...Government capable of protecting the rights of property against the spirit of Democracy"
 -- Letter to Jared Sparks, April 8, 1831.

"Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths."


Thomas Jefferson:
"The natural aristocracy I consider as the most precious gift of nature, for the instruction, the trusts, and government of society. And indeed, it would have been inconsistent in creation to have formed man for the social state, and not to have provided virtue and wisdom enough to manage the concerns of the society. May we not even say, that that form of government is the best, which provides the most effectually for a pure selection of these natural aristoi into the offices of government?"
 -- Letter to John Adams, October 28, 1813

 [Some "Jeffersonian Democracy" -- miko]

"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine."


John Randolph:
"I am an aristocrat. I love liberty; I hate equality."

[No wonder there is no indication in the original Constitution that either the electoral college, senators or representatives should be democratically elected. -- miko]

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2003, 04:30:15 PM »
It's a good thing that the USA is a republic...
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Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2003, 04:43:24 PM »
Jefferson -
Quote
All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression.

Madison
Quote
A pure democracy is a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2003, 04:45:54 PM »
I agree Miko.

Let this be the first new restriction on voting rights in the bold new USA:

Ukranian immigrants must be prevented from voting in all cases without exception - punishable by death...

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2003, 04:57:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
It's a good thing that the USA is a republic...


Yup.

Tried to explain this to my 20 year old son not long ago when he was taking a government class. Apparently his instructor threw it open to class debate as to whether or not the time was right for America to become a "pure" democracy. I don't think the instructor ever did extol the virtues of a government by law protecting individual rights.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Curval

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« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2003, 05:53:26 PM »
So let me get this straight...America wants Iraq to be a democratic country.

But Iraq was a Republic....

DOH!

Republic Schmublic
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Offline AKIron

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« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2003, 06:00:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
So let me get this straight...America wants Iraq to be a democratic country.

But Iraq was a Republic....

DOH!

Republic Schmublic


Iraq was a dictatorship.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2003, 06:03:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
Iraq was a dictatorship.


A self fullfilling autocracy whereby the ruling classes...
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Offline Curval

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« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2003, 06:09:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
Iraq was a dictatorship.


Offically it was a Republic.

Now stop repressing me.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2003, 07:27:43 PM »
midnight Target:
 Jefferson - the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression.


 Meaning that there are political rights that cannot be limited even if the majority wanted to vote for such a restriction. Quick, can you name any such right that is not subject to the majority vote or a whim of a politician representing a majority?


GRUNHERZ: Ukranian immigrants must be prevented from voting in all cases without exception - punishable by death...

 Err.. Many Ukrainan immigrands are as much brainwashed socialists as some Yugoslavian immigrants.
 As for me personally, what makes you think I would want to endorce any socialist faction by my vote?


AKIron: Apparently his instructor threw it open to class debate as to whether or not the time was right for America to become a "pure" democracy.

 There is no clear definition on what a republic is - and never was, even for the Founding Fathers.

 They certainly did not mean that a republic differs from democracy just because the people vote through intermediaries who are supposed to implement their will verbatim - like they are supposedely doing now in US.

 Every founding father had his own concept of a republic. Most of those concepts did not include more than a fraction of the population having any voting rights. Certainly not America of their times.
 Countries ruled by oligarchies or hereditary aristocracies were considered republics by them.

 The only theoretical definition of a republic I could derive from their writings and other philosophers was that of a state where everyone was equal before the law and power was vested in people and only delegated to the government. Which did not necessarily mean the public had any say who was in the government.
 So the government just administered the law on people's behalf but not originated it or stood above it. That government could have been elected or oligarchy or even hereditary monarchy or a mix of the above for all they cared.

 So the major difference between a rule-of-law republic and a  tyranical democracy is not that a person would exercise his political power over other people directly or through some elected oficials, but that a person did not have any political power over others at all. All were entitled to the protection of the laws but not to the use of laws as a political tool. Nobody could confiscate someone else's property, election or no.

 miko
« Last Edit: December 30, 2003, 07:30:19 PM by miko2d »

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2003, 07:38:58 PM »
Miko, what are you, a freakin' Nazgul?

Offline Ping

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« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2003, 07:40:11 PM »
Looks around for an Elvish Sword.....or a woman.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2003, 07:43:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ping
Looks around for an Elvish Sword.....or a woman.


Strange women lyin' in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.

My definitions which I share with many others are:

pure democracy is an order where power to govern lies directly in the hands of the people rather than being exercised through their representatives.

Some small towns in New England come close to this with the town meeting way of deciding issues.

A republic is a modified democracy were the people elect representatives to make our decisions on issues, and if we don't like 'em we fire 'em and hire somebody else.
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2003, 08:12:06 PM »
OK Miko.

Next new rule is Ukranian immigrants dont have right to own land, only landowners can vote.

Offline Curval

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« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2003, 08:36:28 PM »
Supreme executive power is derived from a mandate from the masses...not some farcical aquatic ceremony.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain