Author Topic: Constant Speed Prop Help  (Read 6381 times)

-blk--

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Constant Speed Prop Help
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 1999, 09:42:00 PM »
  Lug:  OHHHHH!  I get what you're saying now.  I agree you wouldn't do that in real life, nor would you be allowed to do it (the mechanic would choke you far sooner).  

  As to the single control lever...  I still don't like it.  If I want an expedited descent, I'm gonna be at a high RPM, and low MAP.  That's not particularly harmful for the engine, unless it gets extreme, and then I can also have the added benefit of notifying everyone in town of my arrival.  

  Yeah, having a computer do it is supposed to make formation difficult since it's always going to be changing a number of different things.  See, that's why I wouldn't like it (and we all know how much formation flying I do   ).  I guess my big gripe with single lever power management is...I like lots of levers, knobs, dials, switches, and Circuit Breakers.  I enjoy flying complex aircraft and doing complex things with them (no gyro NDB comes to mind), but that's me and my more-levers-is-better philosophy.  

blk

Offline bod

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Constant Speed Prop Help
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 1999, 12:25:00 AM »
You probably have heard about the new Morane-Renault diesel engines, running on JET A1 fuel. (The same manufactorer who produced the highly successful Formula 1 engines a couple of years ago).

These engines have a computer based single lever control, but with a mechanical backup system.

Right now they are waiting for the general european and US certification. The problem is of cource that that under both regulations an engine is supposed to have 2 spark plugs for each cylinder. A diesel engine has no spark plugs, and therefore new rules has to be made.


Bod

chisel

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Constant Speed Prop Help
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 1999, 12:55:00 AM »
cool info Bod.
These going to be for light plane applications or heavies?

Chisel <- diesel mech.

Those A&P mechs might have to get dirty tho.  

Offline bod

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« Reply #33 on: October 01, 1999, 02:44:00 AM »
They are made for light planes. 200, 250 and 300 hp, i think. I got all the info at home, and can check when i am finished here.

The advantage with them is that they maintain power at altitude, 70% at 25k (This is MUCH more than normally turbocharged engines), and the fuel economy, and of cource that they run on A1 fuel, and the cimplicity and reliability of the diesel engine.

These engines are a totally new design, and have very little resemblance with the black-smoking and noisy diesel engines in trucks.

Bod

[This message has been edited by bod (edited 10-01-1999).]

Offline Lugnut

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Constant Speed Prop Help
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 1999, 10:54:00 AM »
OK, I gotta come clean, I win the doofus of the week prize. Until I got my hands on the "help" file indian put together, I didnt realize that "-" and "+" actually controlled the *prop* rpm. Doh! I thought it was just the manual keys for changing the engine RPM. My previous posts in this thread assumed that the RPM gauge was displaying the engine RPM, not the prop. That makes more sense and explains why the engine pitch sound increases when throttle is advanced, I saw the MAP increase, heard the engine note rise and wondered why "rpm" didn't increase. Because its the prop rpm  and not the engine rpm (moron). I guess the old planes didn't monitor engine rpm, or did we simply run out of dash space?

Lugnut

PS HTC, please don't carry on the tradition started at ICI of providing half assed help files. Put out a good readme.txt in the distribution file that explains this sh*t  

(really digging the CSP now)

[This message has been edited by Lugnut (edited 10-01-1999).]

chisel

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Constant Speed Prop Help
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 1999, 08:37:00 PM »
Propeller RPM is directly proportional to  engine RPM. directly geared.

I always thought they monitored crank rpm? 3000+ rpm is pretty fast for a big engine.

Think of the prop as a transmission is your car. In first gear (like fine pitch )at 1500 rpm the engine is putting out ,say, 20 HP but in 5th gear (coarse pitch) at 1500 rpm its putting out 70hp.

Now, in first gear the throttle will just be cracked open to maintain that 20hp. (low MAP= little power)
In 5th gear youll have it wide open to maintain that 70hp (high MAP= lotta power)

Sombody said only the torque is modelled so far .Lots of work still to be done but the basics are there  


"These engines are a totally new design, and have very little resemblance with the black-smoking and noisy diesel engines in trucks."

HEHE, they smoke cause there worn out or out of calibration, old or new.
 Take one apart and there all black inside :0

Really like to see a pic of one of them. Off to search the web!

Found 2 pics cool!

Also found another diesel aero engine under development if your interested.
 http://193.26.97.194/index.html




[This message has been edited by chisel (edited 10-01-1999).]

Hans

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Constant Speed Prop Help
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 1999, 08:48:00 PM »
From what I gather the way the engine should operate like this....

At idle the engine is purring queitly as a kitten.  Increasing MAP/Throttle should make the engine louder.

Increasing the RPM setting should make it sound faster.

Right?

By the way...in real life what does fiddling with the RPM setting get you anyways?  When do you want low RPMs and high RPMs?

Hans

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chisel

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Constant Speed Prop Help
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 1999, 09:45:00 PM »
From : August 1942 document from the Air Tactics Dept of the Air Ministry

How to make full use of the performance of the spitfire V,VI,IX

(merlin 45 and 46)
Snip:

(iv) If you want to live on the other side,you must move fast;but equally, if you want to come back again you must save petrol. you will find your engine happier at, say +4lbs boost and 1700 rpm than at +11lbs and 2650 rpm.
Both these adjusments give the same ASI [indicated airspeed] but if you fly at +4 and 1700 you will save seven gallons of petrol an hour. It is possible to get +4lbs above 10,000 feet by reducing the revs until the boost falls to +4. Use full throttle and minimum revs above full throttle height for any desired ASI. this gives the best combination of fast cruising and minimum consumption.
(v) When you are travelling at full throttle, and full power is suddenly wanted, it is only nessesary to push the constant speed lever fully forward to get full revs and boost. To return to high speed cruising at best economical conditions, reduce your revs and not your boost.

Snip:

Excuse the typos

And no way am I typing the whole thing!  


After rereading this wouldnt it be better to map the propeller control to "our" throttle than the MAP? I need more Jstick ports!!

I know, there is more to it than this.

PS German MAP gauge scaled in ATA. Spitter got it in PSI!

I sense an RAF conspiracy.

[This message has been edited by chisel (edited 10-01-1999).]

Offline bod

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« Reply #38 on: October 02, 1999, 01:42:00 AM »
OK, back home.

One prototype MR200 is fitted on a Socata Trinidad TB 20 for flight testing. A MR300 was currently fitted on a prototype Epsilon II Trainer at the Paris Air Show.

The main reason it is so clean is that it uses Jet A fuel, which basicly is pure kerosene, while dieses fuel has a lot of heavy components. Also the efficiency of the cumbustion is of main importance with regard to clean emmission, and they say they have done a lot of work in that area.  

New Trinidad TB 20 for sale are planned to be fittet with the engine in the second halfe of year 2000. The dimensions allow it to be retrofitted in place of the Continental IO-470/520 and the Lycoming IO-360.

I also must add that custom made parts from Bosch for fuel pump and injectors, a Garret turbocharger and a completely new propeller from Hartzell are part of the package. The propeller is no new that it does not have a code yet (Constant speed of cource   ).

Bod

[This message has been edited by bod (edited 10-02-1999).]

Offline Tjay

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Constant Speed Prop Help
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 1999, 02:29:00 PM »
Let me try and help out here regarding prop pitch for those who have got a bit confused with turbochargers etc, etc.  - and probably end up just adding to the confusion.
Think of prop pitch as the gears in a automobile. In the early days, props just had two pitch settings: fine and coarse - like an automobile with just two gears. Fine pitch equals first gear, coarse pitch equals second gear. An just like in an auto, to accelerate (i.e take-off) you needed low gear. But if you never shifted out of low (fine) you coudn't go very fast before your engine rpm maxed out. There you were, pottering along with your engine screaming fit to bust. So once you were airborne and going a decent speed you shifted into coarse pitch (second gear). The engine and prop rpm dropped,just the way the do on the road, but if you kept your foot down (throttle forward) you went faster, till either you reached the maximum speed the thing would go or the engine rpm maxed out.
Think automobile again: on the level in  top gear you can only pull just so many rpm and go just so fast, but downhill you could go right up to max engine rpm - and beyond - when you get a big bang and the engine blows up. Same in a plane, except that downhill equals diving.
The next step from props with just fine and coarse pitch was to have props with infinitely variable pitch. This was equivalent to some funny little European cars with infinitely variable transmission, done with a rubber band running on cones. So instead of being in one of two gears, you could always be in exactly the right gear for the situation if you set the prop pitch right. In theory, at least!
Incidentally, with a prop with only two pitch settings, when you came into land, you put it back in fine pitch just the same way you put your car in a low gear when approaching your driveway. This also allows you to accelerate away again pronto if you miss the approach. If you forgot, and left it in coarse pitch, when you opened the throttle not much happened - just the same as if you try to accelerate you car from 30mph in fifth gear.
If anyone wouldl like me to continue, I will follow on with a personal explanation of constant speed props and the relationship of power to engine and propeller rpm. Otherwise I'll shut up.


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Tjay of the Kraits. All my enemies die laughing.

Ozymandias_KoK

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Constant Speed Prop Help
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 1999, 02:37:00 PM »
Oz not get it.  So his beanie prop is adjustable?

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TKoKFKA-OZDS-

chisel

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Constant Speed Prop Help
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 1999, 02:53:00 PM »
Go for it! I'm listening  

Offline Tjay

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Constant Speed Prop Help
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 1999, 07:51:00 AM »
One invitation is enough for me; thanks Chisel. KoK, what's a beanie, please?
So... Having established that we can think of prop pitch as the gears on your automobile, what about constant speed props? Well, for a start a C/S prop DOESN'T ACTUALLY turn at a single constant speed. What it does do, is maintain speed once you have set it (in AH by using the plus and minus keys) regardless of what you do with the throttle.
The relationship between prop pitch and prop rpm is simple but can be confusing. The less pitch we have the easier it is for the engine to turn the prop; the more pitch we have, the harder it is. {Zero pitch is when the prop blades are lying across the axis of the fuselage and doing no work. However, because they are 'edge on' the engine finds it dead easy to turn the prop. Max pitch (90 degrees) is when the blades are fully lined up with the fuselage. In the latter situation they aren't doing any useful work either, and as you can imagine, the engine would have to work its guts out just to turn the prop round - without achieving any forward thrust. but in between they are catching the air and shoving it backwards.)
Let's say you have 50% throttle applied, and you hit the minus key. The revs REDUCE because this applies MOARE pitich to the blades and as we haven't applied any more power to compensate, the engine and prop can only slow down. The opposite applies: hit plus and the revs INCREASE, 'cos you have just REDUCED pitch, making it easier for the engine to turn the prop.
Now,with a constant speed prop, if you set say 2000rpm on the prop tacho (rev counter), a gadget inside the propeller hub (the constant speed mechanism) will try to keep the engine and prop rpm at that speed. If you add power it will add pitch to absorb it: if you reduce power it will fine off (flatten) the pitch to compensate.
So, if engine and prop revs stay the same regardless of what you do with the throttle lever, how do you know how much power you have applied? That's where the manifold pressure gauge comes in.
At this stage, we needn't worry about what manifold pressure actually is,or how the engine supercharger maintains it at high altitude; just think of it as a power meter. Forget inches of mercury and all that: the lowest figure you can get is idle power, the maximum figure is full power. (Jets have their power meters calibrated in percentage to make it easy.)
So what prop rpm figure do we set when? Coming back to the automobile analogy, where fine pitch (max rpm, remember) equals low gear, use that for when you are taking off, landing, or want to accelerate from a low cruising speed. In the cruise, reduce the rpm to minimum, cos that gives the most efficient fuel consumption and then set the airspeed you want with the throttle.
HOWEVER, I understand that the effects of changing from hi to lo prop rpm are not yet modelled in AH, (SOMEONE PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG} so just set the prop rpm to max (fine pitch) and leave it there.
Please let me know if this has been helpful. If you want a more detailed explanation, including how the constant speed mechanism works and why it can only control rpm within certain limits, read 'Those marvellous props' by John Deakin at www.avweb.com/articles/pelperch.      

Offline hitech

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Constant Speed Prop Help
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 1999, 10:45:00 AM »
A fairly simple explantion of how constant speed props work.

If any of you have ever seen an old steam eng you probably saw a fly ball governer.

what a govener on a steam eng does is by way of centrifical force it opens a valve to let more steam into the eng when the balls are lowered (do to slowing down) and closes a valve when the balls are to high to slow down the steam eng.
Basicly it tryies to maintian a steady rpm on the govener.

Now on to Constant speed props.

A constant speed prop also has a govener in the hub of the prop, some planes like the t6 you can see the weights on the hub. Any way what happens is as the prop slows down this govener simply applies less pitch on the prop to lessen the load on the eng. when this load is lessened the eng will increase its rpm do to the decreased load. Conversrsly if the prop is spinning to fast the prop's pitch is increased by the govener to put more load on the eng and there by decrease its rpm.

When you move an rpm control of a constant speed prop all you are doing is adjusting the set point of the govener to a desired RPM.


HiTech

Deadman

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Constant Speed Prop Help
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 1999, 02:20:00 PM »
Ok now for the real mess
did all WWII aircraft model constant speed
props??  If im not mistaken it would be very weird for every plane to have the exact same kind of props. DC3(C-47) and B-17 both had controllable props (hamilton standards etc)
In fact I think the Corsair does also
I havent really got a clue on the rest of the fighters.
(also wasn't there some kind of Curtis
electic prop used on the p-38 and maybe the p-39?  they used to have probs with runaways with these electrics if I'm not mistaken)

The only constant speed props I'm used to seeing would be on the Crop dusters with Radial engines. These props had large counter weights of some kind near the hub that controlled speed. The crankshafts of engines fitted with these props didnt have to be drilled for hydrolic (sp) control of the prop

I guess what Im trying to say is that any plane that was able to control the pitch of the prop from within the cockpit I dont consider constant speed. If the prop adjusts itself without your intervention then I'd call that a constant speed prop.

I dont claim to be any kind of expert just speaking from my past experience in aircraft which is pretty limited. Feel free to laugh away at my ignorance.

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Tonight, it ain't right
I got to have me a week.
But I'll be back for you jack and I'll let the machine speak!  Thats right Thats right (Maniac Mechanic ZZTop)

[This message has been edited by Deadman (edited 10-03-1999).]