50 cal. and 20 mm. round penetration.

[Virage]

How does the info posted

here


compare to the AH armor penetration for 50cal and 20mm rounds?

Hitech once posted a 50 cal ballistics chart.. but I can't find it using 'Search'.

[Ring]

the brit AP in that chart is 1942 ammo...
in 1941 the Vb and hurri 2c would be useing a mix of 50/50 BALL/HEi

[Ring]

also if you need info on bullet weights / speeds/ HE type / KE output look here
http://www.axishq.wwiionline.com/~ring/info/ammo/ww2ol-weapons.htm

[Tony Williams]

I have found little evidence for the use of 20mm AP rounds by the RAF. The ones listed in that document reportedly performed badly when tested against tanks.

In 1942 the SAPI was introduced, and that plus the HEI became the standard loading for RAF fighters thereafter. Penetration was similar to the .50 API.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum

[VO101_Isegrim]

Originally posted by Tony Williams

In 1942 the SAPI was introduced, and that plus the HEI became the standard loading for RAF fighters thereafter. Penetration was similar to the .50 API.

Tony, is the SAP same as the API ammo for Hispano? I saw it in a doc, the two names seems to be used as synonims. IIRC, I saw it in a doc that covers firing trials vs. replica heinkel 111 wings.

[Tony Williams]

You need to be careful about designations. The British round was known as the 'SAPI', and it consisted of a standard HE shell, stuffed with incendiary material rather than elements of incendiary and HE, and with an AP nose cap instead of a fuze.

The APIs I have seen for Hispano rounds (not British) are more like the German 20mm APIs, with a much thicker, one-piece pointed shell body with a small base-filled incendiary capacity. These would penetrate a lot more than the SAPI but start fewer fires.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
forum

[HoHun]

Hi Tony,

>In 1942 the SAPI was introduced, and that plus the HEI became the standard loading for RAF fighters thereafter.

I'm afraid I've lost track of what the RAF used when.

Was it:

- Pre-1941: Ball only
- 1941: Ball/HEI
- 1942 and later: SAPI/HEI

(Probably not, but at least I tried :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Urchin]

Yea, I looked up the data after watching a Spit IX blow the living **** out of another Panzer.. I believe the actual loadout was

1940-1945- 20mm (actually 2,000mm compressed using "blackhole" technology) with depleted uranium core, surrounded by 45 tons of TNT for the HE effect (also compressed).  All in one round.  I think in early 1943 they tested thermonuclear Hizo...Hispano rounds, but I don't believe these were ever used operationally, other than at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[Tony Williams]

Originally posted by HoHun
I'm afraid I've lost track of what the RAF used when.

Was it:

- Pre-1941: Ball only
- 1941: Ball/HEI
- 1942 and later: SAPI/HEI

What, you mean you don't have a copy of 'Flying Guns: World War 2'?

The RAF started using HE shells, but found the sensitive No.252 fuze tended to detonate the shell on the surface of the target, which reduced the effect, so they mixed plain steel 'ball' rounds into the belt.

The fuze was soon replaced (end of 1940) by the No.253, which was simply the same fuze with the striker taken out, the effect being to delay detonation. The contents of the shell were changed from to HE to HEI during the Spring/Summer of 1941. Ball rounds remained in the mix.

The final change was to replace the ball rounds with SAPI in 1942. There was then a 2:2 ammunition loading of SAPI and HEI thereafter.

AP projectiles were developed for anti-tank use but all appeared to be unsuccessful and I don't have any evidence of their use.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
forum

[Tarmac]

Originally posted by Tony Williams
What, you mean you don't have a copy of 'Flying Guns: World War 2'?

Tony, is Amazon.com still being dumb?  I assumed they'd catch up eventually, but they're sure taking their time getting it in.  Any word?

[Grendel]

Hello Tony,

This discussion mirrors closely what is being talked about in another forum.

Could I request your opinion on a counter-claim to your British AP projectiles comment?

Counter-claim :

A: AP existed
B: AP was in constant supply (limited)
C: AP was ordered in bulk from the US in 1941
D: AP was issued to the front line , in fact we know 2 squadrons were assigned them
E: AP was effective on light/light meidum tanks as per RAF trials.

I'm not sure on what sources this is based to, but I think part is at least based on the PRO documents, one of which is linked on this thread as well.

Are you also familiar with this (source unknown to me)?

In 1941 one or two squadrons were to be designated as Anti Armour units in the UK and the pilots given the appropriate training.

In North Afrika we know it used the Mk2 AP, it had medium effect on the battle field, the P2's and 232 and HT's feared it. P4's and P3's shrugged off the hits.

[VO101_Isegrim]

Originally posted by Tony Williams

You need to be careful about designations. The British round was known as the 'SAPI', and it consisted of a standard HE shell, stuffed with incendiary material rather than elements of incendiary and HE, and with an AP nose cap instead of a fuze.

The APIs I have seen for Hispano rounds (not British) are more like the German 20mm APIs, with a much thicker, one-piece pointed shell body with a small base-filled incendiary capacity. These would penetrate a lot more than the SAPI but start fewer fires.

Thanks, Tony, in the meanwhile I found that report. You will see why I asked:



As you can notice, they talk about five different types of ammo, and five is listed. AP/I and SAP/I are listed in the same line, have the same specs... so I guess AP/I and SAP/I are referring to the same round, at least in these tests (dated July 1942), and the designation was not accurate, changed later or something...

Oh, and BTW, I still don`t have Flying guns (yet), is the Gebauer motor MG found it`s way into it ? Just curious.

[Tony Williams]

Originally posted by Tarmac
Tony, is Amazon.com still being dumb?  I assumed they'd catch up eventually, but they're sure taking their time getting it in.  Any word?

Sigh. I pointed out the continuing problem to my publishers this week, in the hope that they can try again to do something! The daft thing is that many smaller US booksellers can apparently deliver it.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
forum

[Tony Williams]

Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
Thanks, Tony, in the meanwhile I found that report. You will see why I asked:

As you can notice, they talk about five different types of ammo, and five is listed. AP/I and SAP/I are listed in the same line, have the same specs... so I guess AP/I and SAP/I are referring to the same round, at least in these tests (dated July 1942), and the designation was not accurate, changed later or something...

Oh, and BTW, I still don`t have Flying guns (yet), is the Gebauer motor MG found it`s way into it ? Just curious.

There is no doubt that British 20mm AP rounds were developed - I have a booklet on the British Hispano ammunition and IIRC four different types of AP are included. However, it is clear from the comments in my source that the AP Mk 1 was a failure - it broke up on armour - and the Mk 2 wasn't much better - it was tested against German tanks and found to be ineffective. The Mk 3 was really hot stuff: a tungsten-cored 'Hartkernmunition' capable of penetrating 45-65mm, but it suffered ballistic problems and was never fielded. The Mk 4 came out in 1944 and reverted to the usual very thick-walled one-piece pointed shell body.

The info I have about typical ammo loadouts (mainly Wallace's book on RAF guns in WW2 - he was in charge of the Hispano programme) only mentions HE, HEI, ball and SAPI. However, that doesn't mean that the RAF never used AP (either British or American); it's just that I've never seen any evidence that they did. I would certainly appreciate details of sources in which AP use is mentioned.

I would also like a copy of that document you posted the introduction to, if possible!

Yes, the Gebauers are deal with in FG:WW2, including a photo.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
forum

[Grendel]

I think I got to order Rapid Fire just to thank Tony for his continuing input The newer book I already got