Author Topic: best outcome from space exploration:  (Read 6145 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #90 on: January 08, 2004, 12:37:05 PM »
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Originally posted by kappa
no, im saying the number that have died because of something to do with a god..........


Died by the actions of extremists.

Offline kappa

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« Reply #91 on: January 08, 2004, 12:37:50 PM »
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Died by the actions of extremists.


maybe, but died because of an extremist view point about their god... which is my point...
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #92 on: January 08, 2004, 12:45:35 PM »
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Originally posted by kappa
maybe, but died because of an extremist view point about their god... which is my point...


And your solution is to see a world without religions? (remember: imagine a world without religion)

Why not extend that thinking a world without political and social organization. Extremist views of politics and social organization have killed hundreds of millions of people.

Offline aztec

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« Reply #93 on: January 08, 2004, 12:51:59 PM »
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ


Maybe I overreacted but for some resaon your first post pissed me off  


From what I've seen it dosn't take much Grun. Kappa didn't conceive the concept of imagining a world without religion, just parroted what had been said a long time ago. Perhaps you should direct that anger at the person who did write that line....wait a second.... he's dead. Guess you'll have to argue with him in heaven, that is, if you make the list.

Offline Pooh21

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« Reply #94 on: January 08, 2004, 12:52:35 PM »
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Originally posted by kappa
Were not millions killed in the crusades alone??


They didnt have millions back then.

Oh yeah best result would be man-portable Plasma Cannons, like in X-Com UFO defense.


"Eat hot plasma death alien scum!!!!!"
Bis endlich der Fiend am Boden liegt.
Bis Bishland bis Bishland bis Bishland wird besiegt!

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #95 on: January 08, 2004, 07:24:39 PM »
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Originally posted by kappa
not in the least Iron.. Arent we comparing 4,000yrs to less than 10 years of ww1 & 2?? The christiain crusades lasted over 500 years... How many muslims and Hindus?? I have no idea.. Such things are not taught round here in my school..

I cant believe though you wont contribute any of the Jews in ww2 to religious reasoning.. Thats ludicrous

How many were killed in bosnia just a few years ago.. The called it ethnic cleansing, but wasnt it really over two different cultures w/ different religions??

I mean come on Iron.. why do you want to argue this point.. Would it better for me to say as many have died in the name of god than just to war?

How many christians died in the old testiment alone?? This is just christians..

We've yet to discuss budist against hindus...  Budist against Taoism...


What does timespan have to do with it? You made a statement that religion has killed more people than anything else. Not even close to being true.
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Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #96 on: January 08, 2004, 07:44:51 PM »
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Originally posted by Pooh21
They didnt have millions back then.


Ok than maybe a better argument would be of the Percentage of the world population killed.  Beleive it or not people were alot more "valuable" back in the time of the crusades.  Nations needed HUGE armys (in proportion to the total population) Farmers HAD to keep pumping out children in order to make a living.  

Its not all about the total numbers but also the impact it had on the world

1 million deaths in B.C. times had a HELOFA lot more impact that a million in the 1940s.  Not saying anyones death in not significat but just comparing it to the timlines population

 

I do think that being on mars is COOL though...just to kinda stay on thread topic

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #97 on: January 08, 2004, 11:08:34 PM »
I really don't know how many were killed during the crusades, may have been significantly less than a million. Oh well, as they said back then, kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out. ;)
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Offline kappa

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« Reply #98 on: January 09, 2004, 08:33:09 AM »
BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA ***
CONFLICT Move for independence in 1991 brought Serb opposition and
ethnic cleansing
DEATH TOLL-- 200,000+

NORTHERN IRELAND **
CONFLICT 30 years of sectarian violence
DEATH TOLL-- 3,200

LIBERIA *
CONFLICT Seven-year civil war with ethnic overtones
DEATH TOLL-- 250,000

SUDAN **
CONFLICT Northern Muslims pitted against southern Christians and
animists
DEATH TOLL-- 1.9 million

RWANDA **
CONFLICT Majority: Hutu extremists tried to wipe out the Tutsi minority
DEATH TOLL-- 800,000-1 million

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/history.html

Christian intolerance extended beyond fighting "infidels". It turned inward as well. The medieval Inquisition caused the death of more than one million people in the crusade against what was considered a "heretical" sect called the Albigensians in the South of France.

Of course it did not stop there, fresh from this "success" the Inquisition hunted down witches all over Europe. The death toll for the witch-hunts which terrorized Europe for three centuries (from 1487 to circa 1782) has been estimated to be as high as two million.

The Spaniards learned from these and came up with their own Spanish Inquisition. The death toll here exceeded thirty thousand. The victims ranged from girls as young as thirteen to women as old as ninety. Such was the extend of God's grace!

Of course persecution was not the only outlet for the Christian. War was another popular outlet for the religious instinct. The sixteenth and seventeenth centuries saw a spate of wars between the Catholics and the Protestants. These Wars of Religion were fought in the Benelux countries, France, Germany and the British Isles. The final death toll easily exceeded fourteen million.

Perhaps on of the most enduring "gifts" of Christianity to the world is anti-semitism. This hatred of the Jews, rooted in the New Testament, propagated by the early Church Fathers gave the church and the laity the excuse to slaughter Jews at the tiniest of instigations. Christianity holds a large part of the responsibility for the holocaust in which six million Jews were murdered in World War II.

Lets not forget those enslaved because their God was a lesser god...  and sacrifices to god... Parts of this page below..

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#Total

Dedication of a temple in Tenochtitlan by Aztec king Ahuitzotl (ca. 1520): 80,000 human sacrifices. (PGtH)

July 2003 Nat. Geographic: 13,000 human sacrifices in last 250 years of rule (ca. 1300-1050 BCE)

India, Ashoka's Conquest of Kalinga (261 BCE)
According to an Ashokan edict, "100,000 were slain and many times that number died". He was horrified by the slaughter, repented and converted to Buddhism.

838 CE - Siege of Amorium: 70,000 Moslem and 30,000 Christians.
Motassem sacrifices 200,000 lives

929 CE - Carmathian rebellion in Arabia: 20,000 pilgrims left to die in the desert; 30,000 put to the sword in Mecca.
First Turkish raid into East Roman Empire: 130,000 Christians
1076 CE - Atsiz the Carizmian conquers Jerusalem: 3,000 massacred
TOTAL: 698,200 listed in these episodes here.

Delhi (1398)
James Trager, The People's Chronology (1992): 100,000 Hindu prisoners massacred at Delhi

Exodus 32: 3,000 Israelites killed by Moses for worshipping the golden calf.
Numbers 31: After killing all men, boys and married women among the Midianites, 32,000 virgins remain as booty for the Israelites. (If unmarried girls are a quarter of the population, then 96,000 people were killed.)
Joshua:
Joshua 8: 12,000 men and women, all the people of Ai, killed.
Joshua 10: Joshua completely destroys Gibeon ("larger than Ai"), Makeddah, Libnah, Lachish, Eglon, Hebron, Debir. "He left no survivors."
Joshua 11: Hazor destroyed. [Paul Johnson, A History of the Jews (1987), estimates the population of Hazor at ?> 50,000]
TOTAL: if Ai is average, 12,000 x 9 = 108,000 killed.
Judges 1: 10,000 Canaanites k. at Battle of Bezek. Jerusalem and Zephath destroyed.
Judges 3: ca. 10,000 Moabites k. at Jordan River.
Judges 8: 120,000 Midianite soldiers k. by Gideon
Judges 20: Benjamin attacked by other tribes. 25,000 killed.
1 Samuel 4: 4,000 Isrealites killed at 1st Battle of Ebenezer/Aphek. 30,000 Isr. k. at 2nd battle.
David:
2 Samuel 8: 22,000 Arameans of Damascus and 18,000 Edomites killed in 2 battles.
2 Samuel 10: 40,000 Aramean footsoldiers and 7,000 charioteers killed at Helam.
2 Samuel 18: 20,000 Israelites under Absalom killed at Ephraim.
1 Kings 20: 100,000 Arameans killed by Israelites at Battle of Aphek. Another 27,000 killed by collapsing wall.
2 Chron 13: Judah beat Israel and inflicted 500,000 casualties.
2 Chron 28: Amaziah, king of Judah, k. 10,000 from Seir in battle and executed 10,000 POWs. Discharged Judean soldiers pillaged and killed 3,000.
2 Chron 28: Pekah, king of Israel, slew 120,000 Judeans
TOTAL: That comes to about 1,283,000 mass killings specifically enumerated in the Bible. The battle of 2_Chron_13 is so much larger than all the others that we probably should doubt it.

Martyrdom at Soviet hands:
1921-50: 15M Christians in prison camps
1950-80: 5M Christians in prison camps
Orthodox: 14.5M k. by Stalin, 2.7M of them martyrs (1929-37)
Roman Catholics (1925): 1.2M martyrs
By Mongols
1214: Genghiz Khan massacres 6M Christians: 4M martyrs
1214: Diocese of Herat sacked by Genghiz Khan: 1M
1258: massacre in Baghdad by Hulaku Khan: 1.1M
1358: Tamerlane destroys 15-million-strong Nestorians: 4M martyrs
Conquistadors kill 15 million Amerindians: 2M martyrs (1560)
Christians executed by Nazis in death camps: 1M
Nazis exterminate 0.5M Gypsies
Khmer Rouge slaughter 2M (1975)
Kurds massacre 20,000 Nestorians (1843)
Massacre of 40,000 Vietnamese Catholics (1970)

The Ottawa Citizen (20 Dec. 1998)
15M Christians d. in Soviet prison camps because of their faith.

citing Paul Marshall, Their Blood Cries Out
ca. 400,000 Chinese Christians died during the Cultural Revolution.
ca. 100,000 Christians k by Idi Amin (out of 300,000 total k.)
Up to 500,000 Rwandan Christians died as witnesses to their faith (out of 700,000 total k.) (1994)

Citing D. Barret, Our Globe and How to Reach It
40M Christians martyred throughout history.
ca. 8M k. by other Christians

How accurate are these numbers? Well, at first glance, I'm sure that they overstate the number of Christians in Central Asia before Genghis and Tamerlane, and I can't recall any event in recorded history that put 676,000 Christians at the mercy of Hindus. And I'm not sure what they mean by 'Quasi-religionists'. And a million Bahai's? No way. But all in all, this is a lot of people..
- TWBYDHAS

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #99 on: January 09, 2004, 09:19:27 AM »
kappa, cultural differences are not necessarily religious differences. You seem to want to expand your original assertion.

Doesn't seem fair to blame religion for the killing of religious adherents by those that simply oppose their religion. I think you're going to have to discount many of those christian martyrs. Actually, since there have been many millions murdered by the nonreligious I think you need to add those to my numbers. Maybe they should even count double?
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Offline kappa

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« Reply #100 on: January 09, 2004, 09:21:16 AM »
If you die at the hands of someone that opposses your religion, you have infact died for your religion.......

and Iron.. these figures would represent no more than half the worlds religions... very very little here about the Hindus and muslims.... These numbers are no doubt hard to come by...

Further more... The time frame here is only a few centuries... There were countless 100s killed here and there... It has been happening for 4000yrs......
« Last Edit: January 09, 2004, 09:25:03 AM by kappa »
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Offline AKIron

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« Reply #101 on: January 09, 2004, 09:29:39 AM »
kappa, I'll agree that many have died for their religion but that is vastly different from killing for your religion. No way you can say that if there had been no religion those people would not have been killed for some other cause by the nonreligious murderers.
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #102 on: January 09, 2004, 09:34:07 AM »
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Originally posted by kappa
If you die at the hands of someone that opposses your religion, you have infact died for your religion.......



Now you are getting kinda stupid kappa. :eek:

Your positionn is:  Religious belifs are bad because somebody may kill you for holding them.

By extension you are also asking for a world where people hold no belifs or moral positions at all - religious or not, about anything, because at some point somebody might want to kill them for it.

How about the 27 million russians who died in opposing the Nazi invasion of the USSR, I suppose if they just didnt resist (gave up faith in nation)  the Germans wouldnt have killed so many.

How bout the 600,000 americans who died over the issue of slavery and the union?  Think about it if those damn fool northerners didnt have belifs about the sanctity of the union of the states or those damn fool abolitionists didnt have wild ideas about black people being human and all then all those peple wouldnt have died.

Kappa I think in now understand your "utopia". It's a nightmare world  of identical drones with no individualism or principles where diversity of individual opionon and perspectives would not exist as it would cause disharmony.

Offline kappa

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« Reply #103 on: January 09, 2004, 09:43:38 AM »
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Originally posted by AKIron
kappa, I'll agree that many have died for their religion but that is vastly different from killing for your religion. No way you can say that if there had been no religion those people would not have been killed for some other cause by the nonreligious murderers.


my original statement was 'more have died in the name of god'...

im saying nothing but millions have died because of religion.. twist words how you like...  I also stated w/ out religion, people would still die.. other reason would be found I think is what I said...

Iron, you would have it that religion did not cause such death in the world.. You said post numbers.. I did... here they are and probably represent less than 25% of the actual numbers killed for religion or in the name of some god... 4000 yrs iron.. even just 3000yrs Iron.. thats a mighty long time...
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Offline kappa

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« Reply #104 on: January 09, 2004, 09:46:23 AM »
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Now you are getting kinda stupid kappa.  

Your positionn is: Religious belifs are bad because somebody may kill you for holding them.


No, it isnt..

Quote
By extension you are also asking for a world where people hold no belifs or moral positions at all - religious or not, about anything, because at some point somebody might want to kill them for it.


No, im not... My gawd man.. stay outta my post or learn to read AND comprehend what you read...


Quote
Kappa I think in now understand your "utopia". It's a nightmare world of identical drones with no individualism or principles where diversity of individual opionon and perspectives would not exist as it would cause disharmony


Clearly as related above of you understanding, you have far to travel...
- TWBYDHAS