Author Topic: Physics question - help needed  (Read 3814 times)

Offline Hortlund

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Physics question - help needed
« on: January 08, 2004, 08:08:57 AM »
I'm sure you all remember this from high-school physics, but if you sit in a car that travels at 25 m/s and fires a gun forward, and the speed of the bullet is 300 m/s, then the speed of the bullet will be 325 m/s. And if you turn around and fire it backwards, the speed will be 275 m/s. The same is not true of the speed of light, because the speed of light is constant irregardless of the relative movement of the observing or moving body. That is what I mean when I say that the speed of light is a constant.

Take the sun as an example, it revolves around the center of our galaxy at a modest 217 000 m/s. A photon, or ray of light if you will, that leaves the "front of the sun" (i e in the direction of movement) will have the speed 299 792 458 m/s, and not (as one might expect from the car example) 299 792 458 + 217 000. Meanwhile a photon leaving the back of the sun will ALSO have a speed of 299 792 458 m/s and not 299 792 458 - 217 000.

I dunno if there are any physics nerds here who can tell me if we have found an explanation to this, because me being a law-nerd really have no idea, and back when I was in school, no one had the answer to that question.

Offline ra

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Physics question - help needed
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2004, 08:11:17 AM »
What's the question?

Offline Hortlund

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Physics question - help needed
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2004, 08:15:14 AM »
Why is the speed of light a constant, or an absolute. Doesnt that ...defy the laws of...something (see car/bullet analogy).

And how can light be both a wave-movement AND a particle (at least according to my old physics teacher). Something about a proton having a mass while travelling at the speed of light, but not having any mass if not travelling at that speed.

Nakhui

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Re: Physics question - help needed
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2004, 08:21:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
I'm sure you all remember this from high-school physics, but if you sit in a car that travels at 25 m/s and fires a gun forward, and the speed of the bullet is 300 m/s, then the speed of the bullet will be 325 m/s. And if you turn around and fire it backwards, the speed will be 275 m/s. The same is not true of the speed of light, because the speed of light is constant irregardless of the relative movement of the observing or moving body. That is what I mean when I say that the speed of light is a constant.

 


Actually it's not true that the speed of light is constant - it can be changed by gravity - at leasts it's relative speed.

And measuring Speed depends upon relativity and where you observe the object you are trying to measure ;)

What exactly is your physics questions...

Offline Hortlund

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Physics question - help needed
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2004, 08:27:06 AM »
I thought the speed was the same, but you get a blueshift redshift thing with gravity and stars, depending on what direction from the sun they are travelling, and depeding on gravitational influence.

Offline kappa

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Physics question - help needed
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2004, 08:31:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
Why is the speed of light a constant, or an absolute. Doesnt that ...defy the laws of...something (see car/bullet analogy).

And how can light be both a wave-movement AND a particle (at least according to my old physics teacher). Something about a proton having a mass while travelling at the speed of light, but not having any mass if not travelling at that speed.


Its not so much as thinking of light having a constant speed, (recently disproven by an Australian scientist) but in your relation to seeing said light..

Light waves like any other traveling wave still is subject to the doppler effect. Take for example the theroy of the expanding universe. They believe the universe to be expanding because the far out stars all seem to have a 'red' shift. Meaning they tend to have a more red hue because they are traveling away from us. An object with light traveling towards us appears to have a 'blue' (i think) shift.

Proven recently though, light is very much subject to the universal power of gravity. Gravity effects the speed of light in direct proportion. Gravity can also bend light, skew light, and change every aspect of light that can be seen...

But in the end... Every type measurement given or taken was done from a particular relation.. Light can be said to have a constant speed, but I believe that to be just the 'normal' speed if you will... It can be changed or affected...

As far as light being a partical and a wave.. Thats a little deep for me here and now... Steven Hawkin's book, A Brief Moment in Time, has a few chapters that will cover this. But still, it is pretty hard to grasp..
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Offline Hortlund

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Physics question - help needed
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2004, 08:34:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by kappa
Its not so much as thinking of light having a constant speed, (recently disproven by an Australian scientist) but in your relation to seeing said light..

Isnt that the experiment where they shot a laser light through some atoms who were frozen to -270 or something and found out that the light waves came out on the other side a fraction of a second faster than they would have if they had been travelling through a vaccum?

Offline kappa

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Physics question - help needed
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2004, 08:42:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
Isnt that the experiment where they shot a laser light through some atoms who were frozen to -270 or something and found out that the light waves came out on the other side a fraction of a second faster than they would have if they had been travelling through a vaccum?



Actually I'm not sure how they did it.. Or what the results were.. Just the answer seemed to be that gravity infact can account for different light speeds. This experiment gives the idea that light could be 'controlled' by gravity.. Perhaps even the other way around as well.. Who knows..

As far as the vaccum goes, I dont know about that either.. Light waves and sound waves tend to have very different properties.. I'm not sure if a vaccum would have any effect on the speed of light as space itself is a vaccum.. But im no physisist.. hehe

But to add again.. Speed is only a figure that matters in relation to that or those that measure it.. Its all about were you are and whats going on around you.. Your relation to said event..
- TWBYDHAS

Offline Naso

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Physics question - help needed
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2004, 08:45:47 AM »
As nakhui already pointed, speed is relative to the point of observation.

If you live on the bullet (or are the bullet itself), you will notice the rest of the world suddenly acelerating around you to different speeds.

And, more, there's something weird happening when you come close to the light speed, as those simple equations show (for God's sake, simple for Einstein, not for me!!! :mad: ).

In fact as a basic effect of the close-to-light-speed the mass of the object observed will tend to reach an infinitive mass value, deforming the space (as the gravity rules said), and then changing the light speed constant and time itself...

A complete mess!!!

:)

As for the second part of your question, a proton have always a mass, even a photon have a mass, the only particle where doubt is remaining about mass presence is the neutrin.

The weird thing (again) is that as you go close to lightspeed the mass will tend to become infinite, (IIRC the change become sensitive above 10% of light speed), so a proton will have a variable mass, but will always have a mass.

The basic problem IMHO is that, being the observer always relative, how the lightspeed can be an absolute??

No clues.

Is that your question???

Ask Stephen Hawkins.

Well maybe he will start with the event horizont, and speed of information, bringing a new level of confusion in your ideas, untill you decide to stop thinking, and go back playing AH. ;)

.....

Ehmm...

What I was talking about?? :confused:

(note to himself: stop drinking wine during lunch... hic!)

:)

Offline Dowding

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Physics question - help needed
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2004, 09:08:43 AM »
I've got a masters degree in physics, but I hate lawyers so won't tell you.

But seriously, special relativity is a pain to understand at first, but once you get it you'll wonder what's the big deal. General relativity, now there was something I detested. Anyway, we were recommended a children's book on the subject back in the first year which was really very useful. It's in layman's terms (can't remember if it has any equations in it). I'll try and track it down for you.
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Offline moot

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Offline vorticon

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Physics question - help needed
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2004, 09:51:24 AM »
maybe you should stick to playing with curved mirrors...much less confusing and a lot more fun...

Offline Otto

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Physics question - help needed
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2004, 10:07:29 AM »
The speed of light is constant.  But the "why" of it goes beyond most individuals ablity to explain or understand.  This includes me.

  Do a web seach like Moot did and start reading.  Report back in 30 days......

Offline AKIron

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Physics question - help needed
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2004, 10:08:29 AM »
It is confusing. Consider this.

A photon leaves the sun in one direction traveling 300k km/s while at the same time another photon leaves in the opposite direction traveling at the same speed.

From the sun's perspective after one second both photons will be 300,000 km away but in opposite directions. It would seem logical to assume that from the perspective of either photon the distance to the other photon is at this point 600,000 km and therefore travel time away from the other has been perceived as two seconds since light speed is considered to be absolute.

However, since the photons travel at light speed no time has passed. Furthemore, no time will ever pass for the photon as it travels indefinitely throughout the Universe from our perspective.

BTW, someone recommended "The Elegant Universe" by Brian Greene a while back and I have found it to be very interesting.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2004, 10:10:54 AM by AKIron »
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Offline Mini D

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Physics question - help needed
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2004, 10:09:19 AM »
Seeing light as blue or red is not related to "the speed of light" but the wavelength of the light.

I've not heard of gravity effectively slowing light.  I have heard of it bending the light's path... but not slowing it.

MiniD