Author Topic: WMD's found in Iraq  (Read 17414 times)

Offline Maniac

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WMD's found in Iraq
« Reply #210 on: January 12, 2004, 08:02:56 PM »
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I don't understand. How do you determine the times you'll believe Bush and the times you won't? Does it depend on what fits your argument?


Its really simple, the world aint djust "either your with us or against us".

I think it has something with wath the man says,

If Bush said : The earth is round i would agree, if he said Iraq is a imminent threat to the US i would disagree.

If he said, the enron scum are bastards, i would agree, if he said : lets colonialize the moon! i would agree,

Its from topic to topic, is that hard to comprehend?
Warbirds handle : nr-1 //// -nr-1- //// Maniac

Offline Kieran

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WMD's found in Iraq
« Reply #211 on: January 12, 2004, 08:04:25 PM »
Don't worry Yeager, I have plenty of gas for guys that make blanket statements about people, then turn and get upset when people do the same in return. Mucho giggles from my end.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2004, 08:10:56 PM by Kieran »

Offline Toad

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WMD's found in Iraq
« Reply #212 on: January 12, 2004, 08:11:40 PM »
1. Obviously, the Bush administration along with both Houses of the United States Congress felt it was necessary to exercise the US's inherent right of individual or collective self-defence.

Now, do YOU feel it was in accordance with the Charter[/b]? Probably not. However, both the Executive and Legislative branches of the United States DID. I think that supercedes your opinion. Sorry.


2. Again, I point you to the Czech report that Atta met with Iraqi intelligence in Prague.

Prague Revisited The evidence of an Iraq/al-Qaida connection hasn't gone away

A sample for you from the article:

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The background: On April 21, 2001, the CIA's liaison officer at the U.S. Embassy in Prague was briefed by the Czech counterintelligence service (known by its Czech acronym, BIS) about an extraordinary development in a spy case that concerned both the United States and the Czech Republic. The subject of the briefing was Ahmad Khalil Ibrahim Samir al-Ani, the consul at Iraq's embassy in Prague.  

The reason there had been joint Czech-American interest in the case traced back to the December 1998 when al-Ani's predecessor at the Iraq Embassy, Jabir Salim, defected from his post. In his debriefings, Salim said that he had been supplied with $150,000 by Baghdad to prepare a car-bombing of an American target, the Prague headquarters of Radio Free Europe. (This bombing never took place because Salim could not recruit a bomber.)  



There's more, but suffice it to say that this source is not the only one that is continuing to follow an Iraq/A-Q link.

Like:

Terror fugitive Abu Abbas caught in Baghdad

You remember him right?

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April 15, 2003

Abbas, who is alleged by U.S. officials to have plotted the hijacking of the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro, had been living in a Baghdad suburb under the protection of Saddam Hussein.


Well, if not him, maybe:

Baghdad confirms Abu Nidal dead

Surely you remember Abu Nidal?  The multiple gunshot wound suicide case in Baghdad? :rofl

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Led series of worldwide attacks

Abu Nidal was one of the world's most wanted men.

For more than two decades he struck targets from Paris to Pakistan. His followers bombed American airliners, machine-gunned synagogues and assassinated a string of Palestinian moderates.

His most notorious attack was an assault on the ticket counters of an Israeli airline in Rome in 1985.

In that attack 18 people were killed and 120 wounded.



So, once again, perhaps the Bush Administration along with both Houses of the United States Congress felt it was necessary "to combat by all means threats to international peace and security caused by terrorist acts[/b]". Even to the point of removing those that support, encourage and harbor the actual terrorists.

************


I actually used to think better of you as well. However, you've made it pretty clear to me you're just another US basher. You're not quite to the Blitz level, but I respect the effort you're putting into passing him.

Still, this comment of yours cuts me to the very quick. I shall drink a glass of fine Scotch, seeking solace to heal my wounded psyche. Or, maybe just because I like the taste.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Godzilla

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WMD's found in Iraq
« Reply #213 on: January 12, 2004, 09:19:47 PM »
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Originally posted by Maniac
Post a source please.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1986-2004Jan8.html

 
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A spokesman for Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi told the London Daily Telegraph in September that Gaddafi had telephoned Berlusconi and told him: "I will do whatever the Americans want, because I saw what happened in Iraq, and I was afraid."


Think about it. If you were Gaddafi would you be more afraid of the UN and it's fearsome resolutions or the US?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2004, 09:24:02 PM by Godzilla »

Offline Martlet

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WMD's found in Iraq
« Reply #214 on: January 12, 2004, 09:54:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maniac
Its really simple, the world aint djust "either your with us or against us".

I think it has something with wath the man says,

If Bush said : The earth is round i would agree, if he said Iraq is a imminent threat to the US i would disagree.

If he said, the enron scum are bastards, i would agree, if he said : lets colonialize the moon! i would agree,

Its from topic to topic, is that hard to comprehend?


That wasn't hard to comprehend.  I guess it just gets confusing to see someone crying about what a liar Bush is, then saying they won't believe the facts unless he says them himself.  Sounds a little off to me.

Offline Sandman

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WMD's found in Iraq
« Reply #215 on: January 12, 2004, 11:16:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Godzilla
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1986-2004Jan8.html

 

Think about it. If you were Gaddafi would you be more afraid of the UN and it's fearsome resolutions or the US?



http://in.news.yahoo.com/031222/137/2aihe.html

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The Libyan announcement of the decision took by surprise those unaware of months of secret negotiations, but analysts of Libyan policy said it was a logical step in a long-term trend.

"It's the culmination of a policy that started in 1987. That's when he realised there was a vulnerability about being a small state," said George Joffe, a Libya expert at the Centre of International Studies at Cambridge University in England.


Quote
Mohammed Faiz Jibreel, a Libyan exile opposed to Gaddafi, said it took longer before the Libyan leader started to change tack. The big change came when the United States showed its military might in the Balkan wars in the mid-1990s, he said.
sand

Offline Toad

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WMD's found in Iraq
« Reply #216 on: January 12, 2004, 11:32:07 PM »
The UN Charter does not call for any sort of vote, approval, resolution, approbation or straw poll before any nation exercises its inherent right of individual or collective self-defence.

A nation is free to act whenever it is attacked. You will also find that this inherent right INCLUDES a right to anticipatory self-defense. Unfortunately for your side of the discussion, international law has always, and continues to, recognize a right of anticipatory self-defense.

So, although it probably distresses you, it's clear that for the US to be found in violation of the UN Charter's inherent right of individual or collective self-defence, that would have to be found after the fact.

For example, the UN would have to ACT to condemn the action of the US AFTER the invasion of Iraq.

I have yet to see that resolution even offered, have you? Seen any UN sanctions or punitive actions?

No, you haven't.

Now you're between the rock and a hard place.

Either your wrong yet again and the UN as a whole has no problem with the Iraq invasion

OR

The mighty UN is in high dudgeon over the dastardly attack on Saint Saddam and strongly condemns the evil USofA for it's unilateral use of force. Of course, the member states only mumble and mutter to themselves in their high dudgeon. Because just like in every other use of force situation, the mighty UN isn't going to do a damn thing about it. In short... the UN is worthless.

Which one is it?

:D
« Last Edit: January 13, 2004, 01:00:41 AM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Kieran

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WMD's found in Iraq
« Reply #217 on: January 13, 2004, 06:20:30 AM »
So Gscholz, you prefered bloodshed in the Balkans? 'K. ;)

UN sure wasn't about to solve it, that's for certain, but I anxiously await your "The UN was just two weeks away from..." post.

Offline Scootter

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WMD's found in Iraq
« Reply #218 on: January 13, 2004, 07:14:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
http://in.news.yahoo.com/031222/137/2aihe.html




The Libyan announcement of the decision took by surprise those unaware of months of secret negotiations, but analysts of Libyan policy said it was a logical step in a long-term trend.

"It's the culmination of a policy that started in 1987. That's when he realised there was a vulnerability about being a small state," said George Joffe, a Libya expert at the Centre of International Studies at Cambridge University in England.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mohammed Faiz Jibreel, a Libyan exile opposed to Gaddafi, said it took longer before the Libyan leader started to change tack. The big change came when the United States showed its military might in the Balkan wars in the mid-1990s, he said.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Are you trying to prove that he is responding to action and not to the U.N.?

if so good job:D

Offline Kieran

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WMD's found in Iraq
« Reply #219 on: January 13, 2004, 08:08:20 AM »
Specifically, the bloodshed ended when Nato entered without a UN resolution.

Nakhui

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WMD's found in Iraq
« Reply #220 on: January 13, 2004, 08:31:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
The UN Charter does not call for any sort of vote, approval, resolution, approbation or straw poll before any nation exercises its inherent right of individual or collective self-defence.


If what you say were true then when the US discovered Al-quaeda responsible for 9/11, it didn't need any approval to attack Afghanistan...

Yet, oddly,  it did seek that approval and co-operation from NATO allies and the UN security counsel.

However... as usual you and your chauvinistic cronies froth on incessantly with your war is good talk and the rest of the world is weak and sissy.

Blindness and ignorance abounds in Amereeka.

Everything the US goverment does must be done based upon legal authority... I know a concept hard to understand by the ignorant chauvinistic unwashed masses... nevertheless, even Bush and his goons are aware of this necessity.

That's why Bush's clever attornies schemed up "Enemy Combatant" and all those other rules to denying US citizens their constitutional rights.... which oddly enough the US Federal courts are slowly and methodically shooting down as unconstitutional...

US courts have always given deference to the Executive branches in times of crisis... and they have in here too by allowing the process to be intentionally "slow" - really no harm has been done.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong... I think there's some good that has come out of this... really, I do.

And the war in Iraq is not necessarilly bad either... but it's important to get passed all the BS and understand the real reason why it's good... also understand the real reason why the manner in which it was done... is really really bad.

The simpletons, like so many Americans, like to believe the war is moral thing... when it really has nothing to do with morals.

Has nothing to do with what Saddam did to the Kurds or his people.

And that reason isn't "Saddam EVIL, Amereeka Good"

And it's not that "Bush Lied" either...that's a personal character issue he'll have to deal with in another way. The President doesn't have to tell the truth about why things really happen the way they do... they just can't.

Yet still.. they (Bush and his cowboys) must play by the rules.. or at least bend them a helluva lot.

After the UN's rebuff of the US in regards to wanting to attack Iraq for supposidly violating UN sanctions in regards to WMD, the US had to seek another "legal" means by which it could "legally" attack Iraq.. and that means was the War Powers Act - and the legal pretext is "self defense."

With O'Neill coming forth with documentation originating from week one of the Administration... Well, that paints an entirely different picture - doesn't it.

Perhaps the circumstances of the day didn't lead to an act of "Self Defense"... perhaps the act was premeditated....

OMG! That explains alot about the Intelligence Stove piping which is being documented by the Congressional Select Intelligence Comittee!

You're still trying to make that Iraq-AQ link work... yet Powel and Bush keep saying there is none. Powel re-iterated this beleif just as recently as the day before yesterday.

On one hand... you agree with the Bush Administration on the Iraq war and with the other you ignore their position on the Iraq-AQ link.

Perhaps you should go work for them since your information is obviously more up-to-date than theirs.

Yet still you as well as many others here... have no real clue as to why this war came about.

Iraq didn't have WMD for the past 12 years... that is not only a fact... but more and more it is becoming an open very well documented fact. I say open... because the intelligence community of many nations have known this fact for quite awhile.

In any case if this Paul O'Neill situation proves to show an original intent regardless of the circumstances in Iraq... big trouble yet may come for the Bush Administration.... can you say "Impeachment"  oh gees did I say that?

Damn cat is out of the bag!

Ah! Republicans will be praying for loss on election day if that jaberwalkie ever starts to run!

Paul O'Neill is known for being a straight shooter and of high moral character... Hey those aren't my words... those were spoken by Mr. Bush himself. In any case, O'Neill is not known to speak hyperbole and dwell in political wrangling which is Chenney, Rumsfeild, Rove, and Powel's modus operandi.

And now it appears the documentation O'Neill has, may not be classified at all... but in deed memos and notes released by the White House's very own Legal office upon his exit.

Danger Danger Will Robinson!

Danger to the house of cards!

The threat of an IG.. seriously... that's the last thing this Administration wants to do...

The CIA leak investigation is going to hit pretty hard when that comes out.... about around election time... be interesting to see how Rove plays the political damage control on that issue!

Offline Kieran

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WMD's found in Iraq
« Reply #221 on: January 13, 2004, 08:58:18 AM »
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Originally posted by GScholz
Really? Which conflict would that be? What do you know about these conflicts?


Will this do? Backpedal all you like. All I see before the NATO strikes are "calls for a ceasefire" from the UNSC. No resolutions.

Timeline of events

Offline Toad

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« Reply #222 on: January 13, 2004, 09:08:18 AM »
Nexus and Scholz, do a google search on "anticipatory self defense" and then tell me it's not firmly established in International Law.

Scholz, lovely list of references there; now show me where ANY resolution condemning the US action in Iraq has been offered in the UN and passed, or where the US was the sole veto.

In short, the President and the Congress were quite legal under international law and the UN hasn't said diddly about it.

But both of you have such a lovely shade of pink in your cheeks when you get angry.  :)

Nexus, no Iraq/A-Q link? REALLY? So Abu Abbas and Abu Nidal were just living in Baghdad because the local sheep are so warm and welcoming? And the Czechs are just full of BS, right? Becaust the Czechs are sticking to their story about Atta.


OH, wait... I know..... Bush lied!


:rofl
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline midnight Target

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WMD's found in Iraq
« Reply #223 on: January 13, 2004, 09:22:04 AM »
I think the "Iminent Threat" needs to be established. That was the selling point we as a people rallied around. I include myself in that WE BTW.

Saying it was worthwhile because Saddam was a "bad guy" or any other reason is just disingenuous.

I heard a great analogy the other day.

A lexus is a great car. Well made and well worth the approx. 30k you pay for it. It is still a great car if you pay 150k for it. But it ain't worth it. Getting rid of Saddam is a great cause.... but was it worth the price?

Offline Dowding

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WMD's found in Iraq
« Reply #224 on: January 13, 2004, 09:32:23 AM »
The Czechs are 10 year old State with an agenda to suck up to the US for economic reasons. That aside, I  am a bit skeptical about their expertise in middle Eastern affairs. It would be nice to know what British intelligence has to say about the purported links.

"There are no current links between the Iraqi regime and the al-Qaeda network, according to an official British intelligence report seen by BBC News.
 
The classified document, written by defence intelligence staff three weeks ago, says there has been contact between the two in the past.

But it assessed that any fledgling relationship foundered due to mistrust and incompatible ideologies.
"
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.