Why have bombers

[Degas]

I was hoping to see HTC moving toward a more multi-dimensional sim.  That doesn't appear to be the case.

To me, the changes made in this new version seem almost completely geared toward the fighter sim enthusiasts.

Here are the main points that I believe support this opinion:

1.  Bomber effectiveness has been reduced by new field designs.  These designs seem to have only one purpose, and that's to make the fighter hangars more difficult to destroy.

2.  Situational awareness in ground vehicles has been seriously degraded by eliminating external views.

3.  Newly introduced aircraft consist of single-engine aircraft only.  IL-2 is listed under "bombers", yet has no bombsight.  Comments on this AC in the MA have centered around "Yay, we have a dive-bomber we can dogfight in!".

HTC have made an excellent sim for fast-mover pilot game-players.  And they continue to make it better for those players.

Luckily, there are other options available for those of us who prefer true combined-arms, strategy-oriented online gaming.  Or there soon will be.

Sun, I'll be online tonight for the last time.  I hope we get a few missions in before I leave Aces High.  The group we've been flying with has been a blast.

I hope we find each other again.  

[Wlfgng]

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on the 'other' sims....  It's easy to talk about how cool something will be and how nice it'll play etc.. making it happen is another thing entirely.

I also believe that AH is, and always will be geared toward air combat.. fighters.
Hence the name.. AcesHigh.

[Regurge]

 

Originally posted by hblair:
I predict the mannable ack, and additional hangars at small fields will bring a golden era of level bombing to Aces High. The mannable acks are very deadly and will likely have an effect on jabo runs...

I was thinking that too. On our missions pure jabos wont have enough firepower to kill all the hangars and would probably get slaughtered by ack. So we'll have to bring some heavies to soften the place up.

Buffs are still the only effective means of hitting field strat targets (fuel, barracks, radar, etc).  A few buffs killing barracks and fuel can stop or slow down an overwhelming fighter offensive. It just takes some planning to avoid flying directly into the swarm.

[Jebo44]

Well I maybe weird........, ok no maybe I am weird  , but I use the b-17 as an attack repeller   Normally I can get 3 to 4 kills in a 17 at low level. Most bone heads can't resist a bomber tkaing off cause they think it will be easy. Alot of the vehicles and AC are used in unconventional ways so just figure out new ways to use a 17. 17's also make fair de-acker at ground level   But like I said I am weird  

Hmmmm I always thought when certain software packages in the making went GOLD that was a pretty sure indication that things were bout to go the little guys, us, way. IMO things are going to get pretty quiet in the MA, kind of like a ghost town. At least until most have tried the new kid on the block it will. Who knows it might suck but every indication is that it does not. AH is still a good sim, to me it is. I think HT has tried very hard to keep all interests in the game.

I agree the new fields have made the bombers job harder, however beefing up the loadouts will negate the point of changing the fields. Now we just have to start flying as a team, there is nothing wrong with that. My country could use a little more organized attacks and offensive missions. Many have tried and few succeed, I.E. Ripsnort. Maybe now Rip will not be the only guy in town trying to get some organization going.

I think alot of folks don't create missions cause they might not work..... well duh sometimes it works sometimes it does not. That and when you do create a mission and it's a MFF, people that do not try set there and berate the guy that put the mission together. If peolpe will give credit where credit is due, that they at least tried to head a mission, then more might try to create more missions.

[This message has been edited by Jebo44 (edited 05-25-2001).]

[Ripsnort]

Guys, Bombers have been pretty much obsolete for any primary base capture for along time, if you notice, I've never had bombers in my pre-made missions except for an occasional B26 for deacking...they take too long in a fast paced, radar dependant, 'here they come, look at the bar dar' game like AH.

Bombers only good role has been and is, taking down cities, HQ's, Factories, and supporting FH's at fields nearby the primary target.

[kfsone]

Geeb,

I realise this will upset you, but there are other bombers. The B17 was a numbers-operator. I'm kinda amused at you saying 3 b17s could close a field before. You could pretty much do the job with 1 lanc before.

The B17 is a weapon of choice. Depending on arena conditions, how long you want the flight to take and number of planes available, you can still put it to good work if you need to focus on the defensive aspect of your vehicle rather than payload.

IF you need payload, then you fly the Lancaster, and risk the decreased defensive armaments.

The Lanc and B17 weren't front-line fighting machines. They were used for advanced softening of targets, or attacks on behind-front-lines targets.

Hopefully buff pilots like myself will begin planning operations more strategically, putting missions up and diverting some of the country's player resources to operational tactics. The result is that this absorbs the growing player base by encouraging players to spread out a little - there are plenty of us now that we can afford to be fighting two fronts. A fighter/jabo furball at the front combat fields, and tactical bomber raids further behind.

There ARE plenty of pilots who WANT to fly bomber escort in this game, but a solo p51 flying escort for a solo lanc is kinda dull and disintersting.

Try knocking up missions on the mission roster. I find that I get my fighter slots before I get my bomber slots filled. Pilots get as much fun from defending their friendly-buffs as they do from killing an enemy one - because they know the adrenaline rush their oncoming enemy is having   It's a furball with a motive on BOTH sides.

As to citing the B17 as proof that bombers are now useless...

Take the example of RAF 617 Squadron - the Dambusters. What aircraft did they fly? Bet your answer is: The Lancaster. Actually, no, most of their sorties were flown in the Mosquito performing precision bombing or pathfinder-marking jobs. However they also flew a variety of other aircraft as the need required. They even flew their share of Wellingtons.

[Degas]

Well, I just came out of my last session in Aces High, and you could count the number of people flying bombers in the arena on one hand.

Same with GV's, as far as attacking another base.  Still a few upping for defense, but easily taken out now.

It's all fast movers now.  And that's why I said 'bye when I left.  It's cool that fighter sim enthusiasts have an online game they enjoy.

But it's not for me anymore  

<S> to everyone.  I'll be Degas in WWIIOnline.  Hope to see some of you there!

[Wotan]

jebo u aint weird ur an ackstar  


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Im Auftrage der Reichsbahn
(By order of the State Railway)

  Pray not for an end to the slaughter...but for VICTORY!!!

[This message has been edited by Wotan (edited 05-25-2001).]

[Revvin]

Ripsnort posted:
 

Guys, Bombers have been pretty much obsolete for any primary base capture for along time

 

they take too long in a fast paced, radar dependant, 'here they come, look at the bar dar' game like AH.

Sadly true   Aces High is turning away from being a simulator of WW2 combat and more and more into a huge H2H arena. Inflight radar is ruining this sim. Its all very nice getting new planes and fancying up the GUI and I'm not ungrateful by no means for that but please please look at giving bombers a complete overhaul in the next release.

There have been so many heated 'debates' on this forum about bombers that surely HTC can see that they need looking at. Things I'd like to see are:

• Put realistic ceilings in for bombers, infact no lets have realistic ceiling for ALL aircraft and stop stratto dweebs ruining the fun for everyone.
• Take a look at the buffs damage model, to me the bomber damage model is just an inflated version of the fighter damage model, when will I be able to fly my bomber home with the kinds of damage seen in archive pictures, B17's with tails hanging there by a thread, nose sections with almost catastrophic damage. This never happens in Aces High, a pilot wound means the whole plane is effected....I HAVE A DAMNED CO-PILOT! nevermind another one of the flight crew normally trained in basic flight control. You can see the join on the 3D model where if I take a few shots to the tail section the whole tail falls off just behind the wing roots! I'd like to see a damage model given greater depth, for all planes in a perfect world but bombers in particular as it seems its just the same expanded damage model the fighters get.
• Buff guns are another big problem. If we are to give them realistic leathality we also need to get away from the 'B29 linked gunenry system' but what is the alternative? otto? Give us an otto which we can change settings on ourselves, just general variables we can change like what distance otto starts to try and fire but limit otto to not being able to fire under certain 'G' Forces and when the bombers are at a certain aspect which would make it impossible for a real gunenr to fly. The current buff gunnery system only makes things more unrealtic for the fighter and bomber, the fighters hate it but it does'nt do bombers any favours when it creates unrealitic situations. In RL fighters would scramble to intercept bombers before they dropped, in Aces High you frequently see fighters hold back on engaging bombers until they are over target dropping their ordnance because the fighter knows that 90% of the time there is nobody to man the guns so its an easy target.
• Give us a realistic norden...I can't understand why this is? is it to give new players an easier task if they want to bomb? if so where does this stop? you don't dumb down the FM's so why dumb down the norden? It should be a challenge to bomb as it is a challenge to fly any plane in the arena. How about putting in an artificial settling time into the norden to stop bombers doing quick turns over target to flatten it unrealistically quick? Limit the ammount of slewing the norden can do, either by making the norden totally inaccurate or limiting the speed at which the crosshair moves or better still do both! Perhaps if it was a little harder to bomb then there might be a bit more respect for the players that choose to bomb and it adds another challenge to the sim for new players.
• We need more targets at fields, the targets as they stand now are spaced apart too much for buffs to be able to bomb in a historical manner how about adding rows of parked aircraft that are stategically linked with hangars that effect fighter of bomber availability, it would make disabling certain vehicles at airfields harder than it is now and give bombers more to hit. We also need more than just the same tired airfield-port-city type strat, I thought Aces High was moving in the right direction when I first tried it as it gave more strat than othersims but this has stayed static while other sims are moving forward, we need supply routes, more factories, cities and have these targets linked to airfields so that main airfields need neraby targets taken down as well before a capture can be performed.
• For the above to happen we need realistic damage for bombs, the ammount of damage they do to the ground now is ridiculous, its the reason we need such an accurate norden is because unless you get your ord right on top of the target it does little damage and hte crater sizes are laughable. If we had a more realistic bomb damage then bombers could carpet bomb as they did in RL and the norden accuracy could be toned down drastically.

Right now I feel pretty indifferent to Aces High, 56 Squadron RAF has done alot to maintain my interest in Aces High, they really are a class act an one of the few squads that will actually help out an escort bombers and for that I salute them...they are a class act!

 

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Revvin
No.9 Squadron RAF

[Sunchaser]

Well written Revvin but I would not hold my breath waiting for overhaul of AH Bombers.

AH Bombers are in the game to provide fodder for the fighter guys in the arena and something to complain about on the forums.

Still bummed but maybe the next map will help.



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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?

[WolfSkin1]

What Revvin said. Can't agree more.

 

[This message has been edited by WolfSkin1 (edited 05-26-2001).]

[SeaWulfe]

Bombers didn't fly in large groups for no reason.

1 Bomber couldn't do the damage and destruction.

1 Bomber couldn't fight it's way into Germany/Japan/Britain/Africa/where ever.
-SW

[Geeb]

<S> I thought about it & yes it is not as ez to flatten a field w b17     but.... as long as people keep manning ded ak i gonna dwebify the b17    
ps. i would car bomb too but... i dont think it would do any good     something about suicide jus dosent fit right    
pps. srry to the bish who wus trying to get a3 wen i took ded ak     had it happen to me too<   i think?
dunno how these smiles work  



[This message has been edited by Geeb (edited 05-26-2001).]

[Torgo]

 

Originally posted by Sunchaser:
Well written Revvin but I would not hold my breath waiting for overhaul of AH Bombers.

Eh, I would.

Never know what HTC has up their sleeves.

[Revvin]

Seawulfe posted:
 

Bombers didn't fly in large groups for no reason.
1 Bomber couldn't do the damage and destruction.

1 Bomber couldn't fight it's way into Germany/Japan/Britain/Africa/where ever.

Which is why instead of penalising bombers in Aces High we should be asking for more targets in an airfield so that it takes longer to destroy.


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Revvin
No.9 Squadron RAF