Author Topic: Con passes, turns and gains...how? (Read 1558 times)

LePaul · « **on:** January 14, 2004, 12:43:10 PM »

This has happened to me a few times recently and I'm just at wits end trying to figure out how its happening.

A few nights ago, I'm in a P-51B at about 9k. I'm totting 2 500's and a countryman calls a panzer below. I dive in, plink my bombs away and notice a horde or low cons.

I'm screaming fast, 400mph + and level near the deck. An oncomng La7 swooshes by, does a 180 degree turn to catch me and GAINS on my 6 (while I've remained level and screaming away) . Knowing he's got the advantage of turning on the deck, I stay fast and level but before you know it, he's gained, tossed some rounds into me and now I'm damaged, etc

But this has happened to me in various planes over the last couple weeks. I mentioned it to Squaddies who also groaned that it happens to them.

Is this my imagination or something? How can you merge with a con, they do a 180 (assumably bleed energy making the turn) then accelerate and gain on you so quickly while you've maintained your high speed all along?

I'm digging thru my films...will post

Ecliptik · « **Reply #1 on:** January 14, 2004, 01:15:00 PM »

Well, the LA-7 is a dragster on the deck. It accelerates like a beast and will catch a P-51B without breaking a sweat. Did you note his E state at the time he turned? Did he flat turn or loop back? If he was already going 400-500 mph as well, it's no surprise at all he was able to catch you.

Shane · « **Reply #2 on:** January 14, 2004, 01:25:53 PM »

a lot depends. i'd wager the la7 performed a lead turn, starting his turn maybe up to 1k out, maybe even earlier if he was under your nose and couldn't see him.

however quick the la can accelerate, the ponys are no slouch and they won't gain all that fast if the pony has a head of steam already and the la7 blew too much e making the turn.

most likely it was a lead turn, or even possibly a second la7 diving down that you overlooked.

dedalos · « **Reply #3 on:** January 14, 2004, 02:13:26 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Shane
a lot depends. i'd wager the la7 performed a lead turn, starting his turn maybe up to 1k out, maybe even earlier if he was under your nose and couldn't see him.

however quick the la can accelerate, the ponys are no slouch and they won't gain all that fast if the pony has a head of steam already and the la7 blew too much e making the turn.

most likely it was a lead turn, or even possibly a second la7 diving down that you overlooked.

I'll go with the lead turn. I do it all the time. I begin the turn at 2K out. However, there were some times where I passed a NIKI or SPIT at 400+ and next thing I knew, they were at d400 on my six. Maybe lag makes it look that way? Maybe the guy did start his turn early but at that vary high rate of closing it looked as if we passed eachother going strait?

LePaul · « **Reply #4 on:** January 14, 2004, 03:04:40 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by dedalos
I'll go with the lead turn. I do it all the time. I begin the turn at 2K out. However, there were some times where I passed a NIKI or SPIT at 400+ and next thing I knew, they were at d400 on my six. Maybe lag makes it look that way? Maybe the guy did start his turn early but at that vary high rate of closing it looked as if we passed eachother going strait?

This is precisely the phenomena I am referring to

As to the La7, I only noticed it appeared he made quite a sharp turn and =vroom= he was there. I know they accelerate fast...but I was clipping along over 400mph and was trying to pull a Run-Stang

That's just one instance, as dedalos mentioned, in other craft and similar situations, it seems to enemy con managed to do some incredible acceleration that my planes dont seem to be able to do.

I'd be curious if its a net lag or something else...I have a great connect!

dedalos · « **Reply #5 on:** January 14, 2004, 03:52:19 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by LePaul
This is precisely the phenomena I am referring to

As to the La7, I only noticed it appeared he made quite a sharp turn and =vroom= he was there. I know they accelerate fast...but I was clipping along over 400mph and was trying to pull a Run-Stang

That's just one instance, as dedalos mentioned, in other craft and similar situations, it seems to enemy con managed to do some incredible acceleration that my planes dont seem to be able to do.

I'd be curious if its a net lag or something else...I have a great connect!

I have a good connection too, but you don't know what the other guy has, or how busy the HT server was. I think this may be similar to warps

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #6 on:** January 14, 2004, 04:05:15 PM »

I get a lot of cries calling me a cheater for doing this. All I do is pull a lead turn and use my rudders to keep my nose down on the turns to minimize my E loss and as soon as I get out of my turn, I unload (pushing Zero Gs) my plane to maximize my acceleration and regain whatever energy I may have lost in the turn.

So if I start my lead turn say at 350mph, by the time I've completed my turn and on the bogie's six, I'm either at the same speed I started my turn at or faster.

It's all about the angles and E management. If you can judge angles reasonably well and have a good grasp of E management, these turns will become routine.

On a side note, I love doing this to slimpikn as it's always guaranteed to make him cry cheater or hack. But then he always cries cheater or hack.

ack-ack

dedalos · « **Reply #7 on:** January 14, 2004, 04:26:44 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I get a lot of cries calling me a cheater for doing this. All I do is pull a lead turn and use my rudders to keep my nose down on the turns to minimize my E loss and as soon as I get out of my turn, I unload (pushing Zero Gs) my plane to maximize my acceleration and regain whatever energy I may have lost in the turn.

So if I start my lead turn say at 350mph, by the time I've completed my turn and on the bogie's six, I'm either at the same speed I started my turn at or faster.

It's all about the angles and E management. If you can judge angles reasonably well and have a good grasp of E management, these turns will become routine.

On a side note, I love doing this to slimpikn as it's always guaranteed to make him cry cheater or hack. But then he always cries cheater or hack.

ack-ack

Ack, I do it all the time too and I have only seen this a few times.
Most of the times I can tell if the other guy started a turn. I am talking about the very few times that it looked as if we were making a HO pass but when I looked back to see what he was doing, the guy was firing from d400.

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #8 on:** January 14, 2004, 04:34:46 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by dedalos
I am talking about the very few times that it looked as if we were making a HO pass but when I looked back to see what he was doing, the guy was firing from d400.

That's usually caused by net lag. The guy doing the lead turn probably sees what I described in my earlier post on his FE while the other guy sees what you described on his FE.

ack-ack

dedalos · « **Reply #9 on:** January 14, 2004, 04:44:05 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
That's usually caused by net lag. The guy doing the lead turn probably sees what I described in my earlier post on his FE while the other guy sees what you described on his FE.

ack-ack

Thats what I was thinking too

Kweassa · « **Reply #10 on:** January 14, 2004, 04:48:30 PM »

Like others have said, it's a very early turn, initiated in the manner of a low-yoyo, plus impeccable timing. The greatest advocates that move can be seen in the PAC prime time, usually the Japanese pilots in their N1K2s.

Typically, the con you see up in front, is usually in reality much more faster than you expected. They come in with an alt advantage, but try to hide that fact. You usually see them coming in at co-alt, but in reality, they are coming straight towards you after a dive.

With the HO merge, they start an early turn with a slight dive, which if timed carefully, lands behind you about 400~500 yards.

To one's surprise, thinking that the N1K2 in front of you wasn't very fast, and just did a 180 turn, he sticks behind you at 400~500 yards and the separation isn't as high as you expected.

So, he lands behind you at about 450 yards, with about 100 yard separation per second - you are definately outrunning him, but not fast enough to outrun bullets. So, he sprays behind you and either you go down, or get scared by the dangerously close bullets and jink. If you jink, you lose the speed advantage and the separation becomes slower, or he even might catch you.

*Shrug* That's usually what happens. Is that realistic or not, I dunno, but you can do it against all planes with all planes if the timing and speed is right.

dedalos · « **Reply #11 on:** January 15, 2004, 08:41:04 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kweassa
Like others have said, it's a very early turn, initiated in the manner of a low-yoyo, plus impeccable timing. The greatest advocates that move can be seen in the PAC prime time, usually the Japanese pilots in their N1K2s.

Typically, the con you see up in front, is usually in reality much more faster than you expected. They come in with an alt advantage, but try to hide that fact. You usually see them coming in at co-alt, but in reality, they are coming straight towards you after a dive.

With the HO merge, they start an early turn with a slight dive, which if timed carefully, lands behind you about 400~500 yards.

To one's surprise, thinking that the N1K2 in front of you wasn't very fast, and just did a 180 turn, he sticks behind you at 400~500 yards and the separation isn't as high as you expected.

So, he lands behind you at about 450 yards, with about 100 yard separation per second - you are definately outrunning him, but not fast enough to outrun bullets. So, he sprays behind you and either you go down, or get scared by the dangerously close bullets and jink. If you jink, you lose the speed advantage and the separation becomes slower, or he even might catch you.

*Shrug* That's usually what happens. Is that realistic or not, I dunno, but you can do it against all planes with all planes if the timing and speed is right.

If the other guy is doing an early turn, I should be able to see that. If he starts the turn after or close to the HO merge, he will be at list 2K behind when he is done turning.

In your example however, if he does eend up on my six at d400 with 100 sep per second, by the time he lined up his guns, I should bee out of range. Again, I am talking about the times where the NIKI catches the LA7 after performing some wired turn. If this is not pag, then its a bug.

Kweassa · « **Reply #12 on:** January 15, 2004, 07:55:07 PM »

You underestimate the importance of timing, ded. Also, how fast the N1K2 turns at speed.

If indeed the instance happens as you describe it, then what we should be seeing is a N1K2 coming in a perfect straight level merge, making a flat 180 turn, losing speed by the turn, and then, as he lines up behind you, actually gaining speed in an incredible state.

Now that's something worthy to be called an anomaly or a bug.

..

The problem is, everybody claims that's what happened to them, but nobody presents any evidence to it.

I'm not sure if I have the recordings still left in my archives, but what I do remember, is the actual speed and maneuvering range of the N1K2, when I first analyzed that "magic turn", was incredibly different from what you simply anticipate in the other side's cockpit.

Maybe the N1K2s retain too much energy during a high-G turn, even a timed one - but as I said, all planes can do that. I've seen those P-51D/190D-9 aces doing the same thing against my G-10.

Pooh21 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 16, 2004, 07:17:21 AM »

Lead turn does it, its mostly an illusion you are pulling away but slowly because of the angles. Of course the dweeb planes do it automatically for the guy yanking the stick, and of course slowly doesnt matter if he can get 1 hit with his tardpanos.

DoctorYO · « **Reply #14 on:** January 16, 2004, 10:48:33 AM »

he did a low g turn and was most likely packing some e to boot..

I didn't see it but that sounds like what happened..

I do that alot, start turn early (lead turn but I am only pulling 3-4 g's; loss is minimal and then use what Ack Ack described by unloading plane to 0 g to re-accelerate...)

Also when around La7's never take anything for granted.. its the dweeby-est plane in the game and its raw speed and acceleration are a match for anything thats not perked (g10 excluded.)

Just my opinion though...

DoctorYo