The Jagdwaffe were supposed to be escorting the bombers. The RAF were supposed to be targeting the Bobers. Total RAF losses were lower than Luftwaffe losses. LW`s task was to escort the bombers to allow them fullfill their task and in the meanwhile, inflict maximum casulties to British fighters. British goal was to stop the bombers.
German bombers fullfilled their task. They weren`t stopped (frankly I can`t remember any day the British could prevent the bombers doing what they wanted). And the RAF lost twice as manyt fighters.
What next, Nashwan, the RAF`s glory day over Dieppe...?
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The Germans had enough ships to support an invasion, the barges were necessary for landing troops on the beaches.
Uhm, like 168 steamers, 419 tugs, 1600 motorboats and 1910 barges...?
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It's only a 20 mile crossing. Hell, the Italians had enough to support several panzer divisions and tens of thousands o their own troops in North Africa, over much larger distances.
Did you forget the part they were shipping troops to their
own ports, with real ships, and not attempting an invasion with a ragtag "fleet"...?
I'm sure the Germans could manage o rustle up enough shipping in Europe. Yeah, by 41 or 42. Fact they couldn`t in 1940.
Of course not. The Kriegsmarine couldn't hope to stand up to the RN. That was the Luftwaffe's job. The Germans felt the Luftwaffe would be able to protect the invasion fleet, although I very much doubt they could have, even if they' been able to defeat the RAF. Well at least we agree that not only they were far from having a acceptable quality invasion fleet, they had no serious hope protecting it for months... that`s why they would never launch it, unless England was already bombed back into stone age, and all they had to do was to raise the flag over the Tower of London.
No, repeating the argument. That's what I've been saying all along, even though you have consistently tried to change it to the second week of September. Uh, yeah, sure-sure..
Isegrim,I'm talking figures taken from Hooton, who got them from the Luftwaffe archives. You areusing figures that the RAF puts every time as "estimates" They could count radar signitures on the screen, wasn`t that the core of the whole brit defenses? What was Hooton`s number for LW fighter sorties, 1800 or so? They had already done about of those sorties on a single day (7th) of the 1st Week of september. Not to mention by that time every bomber sortie was supposed to be followed by 3 fighter sorties... Hooton`s numbers are plain BS.
Given a disparity between Luftwaffe records o sorties and RAFestimates of Luftwaffe sorties, I'd choose the every time. Care to post those " original Luftwaffe figures" day by day then for the 1st week?
Isegrim, for the sake of your own credibility, you need to decide wether you trust RAF estimates over Luftwaffe records. I am using a consistent line, Luftwaffe records for the Luftwaffe, RAF records for the RAF. Nah-nah-nah.. You came up with somebody`s numbers for sorties that don`t jibe with any other detailed data, and later added that these were Very Original Luftwaffe Sortie Numbers With Goering`s Stamp On It From a Newly Discovered Secret Vault in Freiburg.
Forgive I don`t belive a word. Smells like those Indian spits of yours.
Caldwell? It's Tony Wood's site, I didn't mention Caldwell in connection with it. My mention of Caldwell was in relation to Caldwell's site, and his opinions of Groehler. Then let`s stick to the fact : Caldwell does not questions the validity of Groehler`s numbers. Only you do, and you don`t even know his works.
The claims are all listed. Nobody "mentions" 2000, thats just the number of claims made. You can count them if you don't trust me. I used a spreadsheet, which does the work in seconds. I used a spreadsheet, too, and realized there are hell of a lot of spaces in it, it includes all other types, like nightfighter claims, the Recih, France area etc., not to mention these are claims list, some of them were accepted, others were not, which simply puts your claim about the "official Jagdwaffe claims being 2000+" right into the trashcan.
It's easy to do with a spreadsheet. Strangely, their seem remarkably few claims of Spitfires etc over the Reich during the BoB Uhm, wasn`t the Spit an ultra long range thing, roaming over the Reich all day and night, as I was told here...?
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So, either this doc contains the confirmed kills, or kills were confirmed as a matter of course. Kills were not confirmed "as a matter of course" in the LW. The procedure was rigid and rigorous, and I don`t want to repeat it again which you refuse to see.
As for the doc, it`s collection of the
fighter pilot`s claims. It list all claims, accepted and refused as well, and you can see the reference to the Anerkennung document on the right, which may show it was accepted, denied, postponed, or simply missing. For example, Uffz Schlig claimed a Spit on the 30th Septmber, but it wasn`t accepted for him, being an "ASM" remark, which mean they might acknowladge the claim later on. However, the vast majority is not acknowladged at all (No Anerkennungs number), which means it was either refused or the original doc was lost or missing.
You, dear Naswan, managed to find something that shows the claims, but doesn`t really give much clue about how many were accepted by the LW.
His data is quite obviously wrong if he saidwhat you claimed. Classic sentence for bias.
Tony Wood has posted each individual claim, and hey check ou with what the pilots are supposed to have scored. They amount to 2000 claims for single engined fighters. These are the pilot`s claims, many of those were never acknowladged by the Jagdwaffe. As you were told about 1000 times by now, it mattered little how much the pilots in the LW overclaimed, if the strict confirmation procedure didn`t allow it to be accepted as real kills (unlike in the RAF).
They do include accidents, they include accidents on operational missions, for both sides. They do not include accidents on non operational mission, eg a checkout flight after engine troubles, a ferry flight from manufacturer to airfield etc. Prove.
