Author Topic: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!  (Read 5389 times)

Offline straffo

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Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2004, 02:21:22 PM »
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Originally posted by Vermillion
Straffo, the Mirage data looks on the high side.  But thats just a quick glance and I haven't done any checking in my data.  You sure thats right?


Well it was from memory at work :)

And my 3 Mirage's  books are now some km away ... en route to djibouti so I'll not have a sure answer before 1/2 week :)

Offline Mathman

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« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2004, 02:27:02 PM »
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Originally posted by Nefarious
Navy Phantoms never had a internal gun/cannon.

The Navy only used 4 Phantom variants from Carriers.

B/J/N/S

The B was the first Phantom to see Navy Service, followed by the J in the late sixties. The S was the same as the J, with updated electronics, Just as the N was the same as the B, with updated electronics.


The S also included the slatted wings.  This, according to my sources, led to a "50 percent improvement in combat turning in comparison with an unslatted F-4J."  It also inlcuded "smokeless" J79's which helped to get rid of the smokey black trail common to the earlier Rhinos.

Offline MC_Honky

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« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2004, 02:28:15 PM »
Straffo,

I gotta ask - whats in djibouti ??

I know what it is - why are you going there?

Offline qts

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« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2004, 02:36:31 PM »
It depends what role you want, but for general purpose, although it wasn't proved until the Falklands War in 1982 but I'll go for the Harrier. VSTOL. 'Nuff said!

Offline hyena426

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« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2004, 02:50:00 PM »
i have to say f-104 starfighter,,that thing still holds the world to clime record to this day i beleve,,and a few othere records,,fast as hell,,climed like a demon,,,first aircraft to sport the vulcan cannon i think<~~not sure on that,,but i remmeber reading it some were


f14 tomcat was made in 1972 or 74 i think,, does it count?,,lol<~~still record holder for low level speed
« Last Edit: January 23, 2004, 03:20:04 PM by hyena426 »

Offline straffo

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« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2004, 03:52:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MC_Honky
Straffo,

I gotta ask - whats in djibouti ??

I know what it is - why are you going there?


Me ... nothing :)

It's just a friend of mine who borrowed my books for a short deployement.

There is still some french troops in Djibouti :)

Fyi : http://www.ba188-djibouti.com/

Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2004, 04:09:33 PM »
Also when the Navy Phantoms went from the B model to the J model, it introduced slotted stabilators and drooped ailerons, so that the approach speed was lowered a little and compensated for a overall heavier aircraft.

The Slated wings were first introduced into the Air Forces E model during the middle of production.  I forget the Block #, but were retrofitted to earlier E models.

Offline LePaul

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« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2004, 04:16:36 PM »
Id like to know more about the F-104s too

I read that the Italian Air Force, after many mods and improvements over the years, is retiring their F-104s at the end of '04...replacing them with F-16s

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2004, 04:19:48 PM »
"None of your weedy American Lightnings to be found here! That P-38, well... it ain't noisy enough, it doesn't have flames coming out the back end and it just doesn't compare, full stop. English Electric made the only Lightning worth talking about. If you never saw a Lightning come off the end of the runway and immediately go straight up like a damn rocket making more noise than was believable, then you have my sympathies. You missed one hell of an experience!

While there were rumblings that the American's new F-22 was going to be called the Lightning II, they sensibly decided against it - after all, the F-22's just a box with wings on. No charisma at all. Much better that it is now named after a dinosaur! All this supercruise malarkey - you'd think they invented it or something. Now, continue on and read about the first aircraft with supercruise... the English Electric Lightning."


Mk.3a stats (1964)

Weight empty 28,041 lb

Max Takeoff 41,700 lb

Max Level Speed: Mach 2.27 at 40,000 ft

Initial Climb Rate: 50,000 ft  / min

Service Ceiling: 60,000 ft +

Range typical: 800 m without overwing tanks

Here's a really good comparison of the F-15 and the EE Lightning by an RAF Wing Commander with experience of both planes. Also mentions the Mig-25.

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/lightning/memories.html
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline hyena426

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« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2004, 05:38:34 PM »
F-104 as one of the most powerful and good designed planes of its era maintained a lot of world records. Here is a list of its records:
USAF time-to-intercept record : Target: 10669 meter, 227 km. from base time-to-intercept: 8 minutes 59.9 seconds. Average speed 1850 km/h. Performed by Captain M. Schaff, USAF; Captain B. Jones, USAF. 10/12/1958.
World speed record : 2259 km/h (about Mach 2). Performed by Captain W. W. Irwin, USAF. YF-104A. 17/5/1958.
World altitude record : 27,813 meter. Performed by Major Howard C. Johnson, USAF. YF-104A. 7/5/1958. 31,515 meter. Performed by Captain Joe B. Jordan, USAF. F-104C. 14,12,1959.
Women's world speed record. 1936.75 km/h (Mach 1.6). Performed by Jacqueline Cochran. 1/5/1963. 2299.58 km/h (Mach 1.8). Performed by Jacqueline Cochran. 11/5/1963.

World time-to-climb record :

F-104s were very successful and in West Germany they passed out of service only in 1990. The F-104G was the best one among them. The F-104s usually carried one M-61 "Vulcan" cannon and AIM-9B "Sidewinder" heat-seeking missiles



General characteristics F-104A  
Primary function Fighter
Contractor Lockheed Aircraft Corporation
Power plant One General Electric J79-GE-3A/3B turbojet engine with afterburner
Speed max.  1,047 mph 1,669 km/h
min. 195 mph 314 km/h
Initial climb rate 1,006 ft/s 307 m/s
Ceiling 64,830 ft 19,760 m
Range normal 730 miles 1,174 km  
maximum 1,400 miles 2,250 km  
Wingspan 21 ft 9 in 6.6 m
Length 54 ft 8 in 16.7 m
Height 13 ft 5 in 4 m
Weight empty 13,184 lb 5,980 kg
max. takeoff 25,840 lb 11,720 kg
Crew One
Armament One 20mm M61A1 cannon (725 rounds); 2x AIM-9B Sidewinder on wingtips; 4,000 lb of bombs under the wings.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2004, 06:02:26 PM by hyena426 »

Offline Otto

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« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2004, 05:55:20 PM »
The F-8.  It was a Fighter.   Everything else was a compromise.

Offline hyena426

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« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2004, 06:01:02 PM »
The Lockheed F-104 Starfighter was nicknamed "the missile with a man in it," since its long, thin fuselage and stubby wings resembled a missile more than a conventional aircraft. The F-104 was the first interceptor in our nation’s service to be able to fly at sustained speeds above Mach 2 (twice the speed of sound).

The Starfighter’s design was radical for its time, as it was a small, straight-wing aircraft while most contemporary designs were much larger and featured swept-back wings. The wingspan is only 21 feet, 11 inches, and the wings themselves have a 100 negative dihedral. The razor-sharp leading edge requires a specialty fitted cover when on the ground to protect the ground crew. A narrow fuselage fits tightly around the power plant, and its forward portion curves down slightly to allow maximum pilot visibility.

The F-104 featured the General Electric 14,800-pound-thrust J79 turbojet engine and afterburner, which occupied more than half the length of the fuselage. The fuel tanks and cockpit took up much of the remainder, so that insufficient space remained for the necessary electronics systems. A series of self-contained electronics packages were

developed which could be ‘plugged in" to suit the individual mission. Basic armament consisted of an M-61 Vulcan 20-mm gun in the fuselage and a Sidewinder GAR-8 missile on each wingtip. The M61 was a Gatling type with multiple rotating barrels and an extremely high rate of fire.

Design of the F-104 began in November 1952. The U.S. Air Force had a requirement for a superior day fighter, and Lockheed began work on its Model 83. Two prototypes, powered by the Wright J65 engine, were ordered by the Air Force in March 1953. On February 7,1954, Lockheed test pilot Tony Le Vier made the first flight in the XC-104. Fifteen YF-104A aircraft, powered by the GE J79 engine, were ordered for testing.

The first F-104A deliveries took place on January 26, 1958. They were delivered to the 83d Fighter-Interceptor Squadron at Hamilton Air Force Base. California. Soon afterward, pilots from this squadron set new world speed and altitude records. Maj. Howard C. Johnson established a world airplane altitude record of 91,249 feet on May 7. 1958. On May 16, 1958, Capt. Walter W. Irvin established a world speed record of 1,404.19 mph. The F-104 also established seven climb-to-height records. Four of these replaced old records: the 15000 meter, 20.000 meter. and 25.000 meter climbs set completely new records.

The major variants were the F-104B, a two-seat version of the F-104A, used as an operational trainer: the F-104C, modified for use by the Tactical Air Command with provision for inflight refueling: and the F-104D, a two-seat version of the F-104C.

The majority of Starfighters were used in foreign service. Most of the F-l04Gs, F-l04Js, and CF104s were built under license in NATO and SEATO countries. The basic Starfighter was modified to be a multimission fighter with considerably strengthened structure and different operational equipment.

On October 12. 1959. the Starfighter protect was awarded the Collier Trophy.

Starfighters served in the Air Force until the early 1960s. A few saw service in Vietnam. and they were also used in Air National Guard units until 1975. Their European counterparts stayed in service even longer.

The museum’s specimen is a Lockheed F-104A, military serial number 55-2961, the seventh F-104A produced (formerly a YF-104A). It was procured by the NASA Flight Research Center (then NACA High Speed Flight Station) at Edwards Air Force Base. California. on August 23. 1956. It was first flown by NASA on August 27. 1956, and logged 1.439 flights over a period of nineteen years.

The airplane. NASA number 818. was used in a number of research programs at Edwards It was used in the evaluation program of the Starfighter at first and was later used to help confirm wind tunnel data in actual flight, as a flying testbed, and as a chase plane. It was a part of the research program that led to the X-15 airplane program; a particularly important phase was the testing of reaction type controls.

Nineteen pilots flew the 818. Among them were three Apollo astronauts. including Neil Armstrong seven X-15 pilots, including Joe Walker: and six lifting body pilots. It made its last operational flight on August 26. 1975. and was flown to Andrews Air Force Base. near Washington D.C.. for transfer to the National Air and Space Museum later that year.

Offline LePaul

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« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2004, 06:44:56 PM »
There was a pilot here locally who was in the warbird biz, trading planes back and forth.  He had an F-104 that came from Norway (maybe Sweden)...it had effectively sat in a roadside hangar and maintained quite nicely for years.  He invited me to the hangar to see it up close and wow...it had the wings off, being refurbished...but just amazing.

He traded/sold it a while ago and teased he'd let me know if he wanted to part with it.  

If you think my BD-5 building was a short trip to suicide, can you imagine me in owning an F-104??  Geez with my income, I could only afford to fly it once a year!!  Par in insurance, training, etc etc..omg!

Offline hyena426

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« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2004, 07:20:12 PM »
wow,,it would be so cool to own a peice of history,,any war jet would be killer,,but i allways liked the f-104,,fast and never took to its max,,i remmeber reading about a rich private owner tring to break the low level speed record he beat it<~was held by a modifide f-4 phant,,,then navy came out with the f14 tomcat that beat his record for low level,,,the guy came back out to beat the navy's record and died in the attempt,,,ever sence then,,they wont let any private owners go for speed records anymore in military aircraft,,i dont think they will let private owners even break the sound barrier right? against fcc regs i beleve

my cousin is a engineer and was taught under a guy who did most of the work on the f-104,,he told my cousin little secrets they had to do to make it fly,,like channeling heat from the motors threw little groves in the wings to create hot air over the wings,,so they would have more lift<~~guess the wings were too small to get anuff lift for it to fly,,he gots alot of f-104 info,,ill have to dig him for alittle more

Offline Cobra412

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« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2004, 08:15:51 PM »
If F-15's were included in the early 70's category I'd have to pick them.  I'am partial to them as I work them for a living.  And as far as climb to altitude records I don't believe the F-15 has tried for any serious records since the original Streak Eagle.  Beings it was only using PW100 engines I'm sure the newer engines could easily out perform what it did but by how much who knows.