Author Topic: Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!  (Read 5387 times)

Offline LePaul

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Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2004, 10:37:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
That would be a CF-104. We sold them when we bought F-16s in the early '80s, but we kept two to train aircraft mechanics (one in a mechanic school here in my home town). We also got one of John Travolta's Learjets. :D


I was asking my friend who saw it with me...you're right, its one of yours.  (He also jested "I recall you grasping for your checkbook when he said 'Might be for sale'  LOL)

One of the guys here is a retired jet engine mechanic, loves to talk about working on J79s..teases me about us "pitching in and getting one from the boneyard and get it flying"...:eek:

An R2 dome behind the cockpit would look kinda cool  :p

Offline lasersailor184

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Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2004, 11:35:52 PM »
I can't believe you guys are even asking this!!



The best airplane of the 60's and early 70's is the p47 Thunderbolt.  It saw use throughout Vietnam as a close air support plane.
Punishr - N.D.M. Back in the air.
8.) Lasersailor 73 "Will lead the impending revolution from his keyboard"

Offline Raubvogel

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Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
« Reply #47 on: January 24, 2004, 12:28:45 AM »
Huh?

My Big Coloring Book of Fighter Planes doesn't say that!

Offline mrblack

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Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2004, 12:42:50 AM »
F-4

Offline Rino

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Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2004, 09:08:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by FUNKED1
The Navy F-4 version with guns.  Navy missiles PWN3D AF missiles.


     What navy missiles would those be?  The same sidewinders
and sparrows the Air Force used? ;)

     For what it's worth. I worked fire control on 1967-8 Block 35
F-4Es in the early eighties, so I'm voting for Double Ugly :aok

     Rino
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PHAN
Proud veteran of the Cola Wars

Offline Nefarious

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Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2004, 01:17:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rino
What navy missiles would those be?  The same sidewinders
and sparrows the Air Force used? ;)
 



Quote from F-8 Crusader Units of the Vietnam War

Pickings were lean for the next three years, with only one Navy F-4 crew getting a kill in 1970. It was not until the heavy combat in the Spring of 1972 that US Crews began to score again, altough the VPAF's maturing tactics and experience resulted in several periods of suprising success against Air Force Phantom II's, whose crews still struggled with outdated combat formations and frustrating failures with the service's two primary aerial missiles, the Aim-4 Falcon and the Aim-7 Sparrow-Air Force F-4s and the Navy's latest Sidewinder missile variant were not technically compatible.



I'm not sure what variant they are talking about...So you see not all were the same.
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline Gunslinger

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Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2004, 02:16:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
I can't believe you guys are even asking this!!



The best airplane of the 60's and early 70's is the p47 Thunderbolt.  It saw use throughout Vietnam as a close air support plane.


U got to be kidding me right?   Is this what your referring too?


If so this is the A1 Skyraider and it was one of the only prop driven attack aircraft flown by the USA in the 60's and 70's

AWSOME plane though...could carry its own weight in ord.

Offline vorticon

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Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2004, 02:58:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MC_Honky
Thank GOD the Canadians have not come on this board with their "THE AVRO-ARROW WAS THE BEST PLANE EVER!" ;)
 
fluid dynamics" with an integrated "lifting body" type of theory rather than the typical (and obsolete) "blade element" theory.
4) First a/c to have marginal stability designed into the pitch axis for better maneuverability, speed and altitude performance.
5) First a/c to have negative stability designed into the yaw axis to save weight and cut drag, also boosting performance.
6) First a/c to fly on an electronic signal from the stick and pedals. i.e., first fly-by-wire a/c.
7) First a/c to fly with fly by wire AND artificial feedback (feel). Not even the first F-16's had this.
8) First a/c designed to be data-link flyable from the ground.
9) First a/c designed with integrated navigation, weapons release, automatic search and track radar, datalink inputs, home-on-jamming, infrared detection, electronic countermeasures and counter-countermeasures operating through a DIGITAL brain.
10) First high wing jet fighter that made the entire upper surface a lifting body. The F-15, F-22, Su-27 etc., MiG-29, MiG 25 and  others certainly used that idea.
11) First sophisticated bleed-bypass system for both intake AND engine/exhaust. Everybody uses that now.
12) First by-pass engine design. (all current fighters have by-pass engines).
13) First combination of the last two points with an "ejector" nozzle that used the bypass air to create thrust at the exhaust nozzle while also improving intake flow. The F-106 didn't even have a nozzle, just a pipe.
14) Use of Titanium for significant portions of the aircraft structure and engine.
15) Use of composites (not the first, but they made thoughtful use of them and were researching and engineering new ones).
16) Use of a drooped leading edge and aerodynamic "twist" on the wing.
17) Use of engines at the rear to allow both a lighter structure and significant payload at the centre of gravity. Everybody copied that.
18) Use of a LONG internal weapons bay to allow carriage of specialized, long-range standoff and cruise missiles. (not copied yet really)
19) Integration of ground-mapping radar and the radar altimeter plus flight control system to allow a seriousstrike/reconnaissance role. The first to propose an aircraft be equally adept at those roles while being THE air-superiority fighter at the same time. (Few have even tried to copy that, although the F-15E is an interesting exception.)
20) First missile armed a/c to have a combat weight thrust to weight ratio approaching 1 to 1. Few have been able to copy that.
21) First flying 4,000 psi hydraulic system to allow lighter and smaller components.
22) First oxygen-injection re-light system.
23) First engine to have only two main bearing assemblies on a two-shaft design.
24) First to use a variable stator on a two-shaft engine.
25) First use of a trans-sonic first compressor stage on a turbojet engine.
26) First "hot-streak" type of afterburner ignition.
27) First engine to use only 10 compressor sections in a two-shaft design. (The competition was using 17!!)  

Wingspan: 50 feet
Lenght: 85 feet 6 inches
Height: 21 feet 3 inches
Weight (empty) 43 960 pounds
Weight (max take-off) 62 430 pounds
Cruising speed: 701 mph (Mach 1.06)  
Max speed: 1 312 mph (Mach 1.98)
Climbing speed(0 to 50 000 feet) 4 minutes 24 seconds
Operating ceiling: 58 500 feet
Interception ceiling: 75 000 feet
Powerplants: 2 x Pratt Withney J-75 rated at 23 450 pounds each  
   
-capable of sustaining 1 (or was it 2) G manouvers at mach 1.5 without a loss of E

fine...i'll do it



1) First a/c designed with digital computers being used for both aerodynamic analysis and designing the structural matrix (and a whole lot more).
2) First a/c design to have major components machined by CNC (computer numeric control); i.e., from electronic data which controlled the machine.
3) First a/c to be developed using an early form of "computational

oh wait it was a plane of the 50's...i guess it doesnt count...

BEST PLANE EVAR !!!111ONEONEONE

:D

Offline Vermillion

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Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2004, 03:34:31 PM »
Nefarious, there were few kills from 1969 to 1972 because the US pretty much stayed out of North Vietnam except for recon flights , "reaction" fights, and a few excursions.

The AIM-4 Falcon was a Air Force IR missile that was a dismal failure, and the fighter squadrons quickly stopped using them.  Both the USAF and the USN used the AIM-7E and AIM-7E2, but technically they tended to have high failure rates, and the Navy effectively stopped using them for a while, preferring Sidewinders.  

By the 1972+ phase of the war, the USAF and the USN used two different varients of the AIM-9, which were technically different and incompatible.  The Navy varient was better.

In regards to the outdated tactics, its referring to the USAF's use of the WWII style tactics of the "Finger Four" unit style of flying which was not very flexible and effectively used 4 aircraft to have one designated "shooter".  The Navy used the more modern tactics (and very similar to the wingman tactics we use) of "Loose Duece" where the "lead plane" switched off between the two pilots at need, and was much more flexible.

Just trying to explain some of the references in your quote.

Offline Cobra412

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Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
« Reply #54 on: January 24, 2004, 04:54:02 PM »
The "loose deuce" tactic that was implemented is not much different than what was used in WWII.  It has very few minor changes compared to the "double attack" tactics doctrine.

The only minor difference is the fact the Fighter/Free Fighter roles have changed ever so slightly.  The Fighter was expected to get the kill where as the Free Fighter was only there for support/lookout during an engagement if roles turned on the Fighter.

The "loose duece" tactic actually allows either aircraft to be the fighter at any given time.  Key in these is switching roles constantly during the engagement fluidly.

This doctrine is infact better than the old "fighting wing" tactic but that had already been figured out during WWII and is why the "double attack" doctrine was put in place.  Then later on during Vietnam the "loose duece" doctrine was implemented using only a slight variation.

The Finger Four formations wasn't necessarily the issue as was the "double attack" doctrine itself.  Using one fighter out of the flight of four wasn't exactly correct either.  Each flight consisted of 2 groups of wingmen and in that flight they could split the flight and use bracketing techniques within the two seperate sets of wignmen.  But ofcourse every engagement determined how the fight was pursued with so many different variables.

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2004, 05:11:13 PM »
No, definately not referring to A1 "Sandies".
Punishr - N.D.M. Back in the air.
8.) Lasersailor 73 "Will lead the impending revolution from his keyboard"

Offline Gunslngr

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Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
« Reply #56 on: January 29, 2004, 06:21:32 AM »
Oh my other brother Gunslinger,
You forget the A/B-26 Invader. It was used in 40's, 50's, 60's
and 70's ( and probably in some special operations in the 80's).

One could also make an arguement for the AC-47 and AC-130
gunships










Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
U got to be kidding me right?   Is this what your referring too?


If so this is the A1 Skyraider and it was one of the only prop driven attack aircraft flown by the USA in the 60's and 70's

AWSOME plane though...could carry its own weight in ord.

Offline 2Slow

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Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!
« Reply #57 on: March 22, 2004, 01:41:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
Phantom. Hands down the best.  Well... once they put a cannon back in it.

MiniD


Crusader would be a close second or tied with the F4.
2Slow
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TANSTAAFL

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #58 on: March 22, 2004, 08:34:29 PM »
A couple of Canadian pilots in CF-104s shot down a couple F-15s in a two on two exercise.  To add insult to injury, the Canadians flew the entire engagement with flaps and wheels down.  :)



PS:  NEVAR FORGET THE ARROW!!

Offline SunTracker

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« Reply #59 on: March 22, 2004, 09:33:03 PM »
Canada also tricked a U.S. aircraft carrier into thinking a lighthouse was another ship-

NOT